AB GENERAL 3 RE DO VEGANS HAVE PASSIVITY ISSUES
From: Warren Oates (Warren@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:49:01 -0400


In article <b54Ja.18749$Mc4.3245745@no-spam>,
"Tom2Tec" <tom2tec.remove_this@no-spam> wrote:

: Since I enjoy being a vegetarian, that's exactly what I'm doing. Since I'll : live : longer (probably) and be in better condition (definitely), I believe I'll : live : better and longer than if I had just eating the low quality highly profitable : processed product that passes for food in this society. Anyways, to each : their : own.

Yes, my Uncle Richard died last year. We warned him over and over about his consumption of RED MEAT and copious quantities of DEMON RUM and the fermented FRUIT OF THE VINE and his profligate way with YOUNG WOMEN OF ILL REPUTE. Would this man listen? NO. So, then, suddenly, at the age of 93, he just keeled right over, and was gone from us forever. At his memorial, the family , oh, I just can't go on, it's too emotional.
-- Looks like more of Texas to me. Traiganme la cabeza de Alfredo Garcia.





From: "Jennifer Wainwright" (JenniferWainwright@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:44:56 GMT

"Tom2Tec" <tom2tec.remove_this@no-spam> wrote in message news:b54Ja.18749$Mc4.3245745@no-spam > |
> | Vegans are just plain stupid. You have one life, enjoy it.
> | --
>
> Since I enjoy being a vegetarian, that's exactly what I'm doing. Since I'll live > longer (probably) and be in better condition (definitely), I believe I'll live > better and longer than if I had just eating the low quality highly profitable > processed product that passes for food in this society. Anyways, to each their > own.
>

It doesn't follow that anyone who is not a vegetarian eats "low quality and highly profitable processed product." Including some meat in a healthy diet seems more likely to add to its nutritional values than otherwise.

Cheers,

Jen

From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:47:30 GMT

"shadow" <dishstuff@no-spam> wrote in message news:M%KIa.26391$hC5.274235@no-spam > so is hat like having slaves way back. you own them you bred them and you > own the off spring.. but we found that to be illegal and stop that practice > didnt we.

Yup, exactly the same thing. Try a real arguement next time. There's a significant difference betweens humans being bred as slaves versus chickens being bred as a source of food.


From: "Reason" (peterJ@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:01:55 GMT

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:S80Ka.273830$ro6.7098860@no-spam >
> "shadow" <dishstuff@no-spam> wrote in message > news:M%KIa.26391$hC5.274235@no-spam > > so is hat like having slaves way back. you own them you bred them and you > > own the off spring.. but we found that to be illegal and stop that > practice > > didnt we.
>
> Yup, exactly the same thing. Try a real arguement next time. There's a > significant difference betweens humans being bred as slaves versus chickens > being bred as a source of food.
>

That's a no-brainer for sure.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:06:28 -0400

Significant only to those on the beneficial side of the oppression. Your statement is spawned by the belief that your species is superior to all others. Atrocities arise when people start acting on their beliefs as if they were valid.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:S80Ka.273830$ro6.7098860@no-spam > There's a significant difference betweens humans being bred as slaves versus chickens > being bred as a source of food.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:38:35 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:9b2Ka.23299$j56.246340@no-spam > Significant only to those on the beneficial side of the oppression. Your > statement is spawned by the belief that your species is superior to all > others. Atrocities arise when people start acting on their beliefs as if they > were valid.

Are you suggesting that Cows and Chickens are superior to Humans?


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:40:10 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:Q33Ka.23685$j56.251442@no-spam > That's all you have? Just stupid rhetoric. No need to subscribe to your > channel then.

Well Ray, you made a pretty silly arguement and you got a silly response.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:12:03 -0400

My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant. Who the heck do we think we are that we can just take over the whole planet and destroy the lives of every other species? Can you even conceive of a valid response?

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:vx3Ka.274246$3C2.7914290@no-spam > Are you suggesting that Cows and Chickens are superior to Humans?


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:12:38 -0400

What part did you find silly?

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:_y3Ka.274256$3C2.7914251@no-spam > Well Ray, you made a pretty silly arguement and you got a silly > response.


From: Alan Baker (alangbaker@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:06:56 GMT

In article <pi9Ka.38650$bZ.321873@no-spam>,
"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:

> My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant. Who the heck do we > think we are that we can just take over the whole planet and destroy the > lives of every other species? Can you even conceive of a valid response?
> > -Ray.

You do realize that there are entire species that would be destroyed if we *stopped* farming.

-- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."


From: Determinator@no-spam (Determinator)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:21:02 GMT

Tony Reed <trljc@no-spam> wrote:

>
>Aparagus screams when you steam it, didya know that? >
>The potatoes begged for mercy as I peeled their tender skins from their >firm white flesh and dropped them into the boiling water and made them >into salad to appease my insatiable appetite and keep my anorexia in >check. The iceberg lettuce gasped in pain as I removed its outer leaves >to the compost and the tomatoes ... well,actually, the tomatoes are >somewhat masochist, they like it when I'm a bit rough with them.

ARTIST: Arrogant Worms TITLE: Carrot Juice Is Murder
Listen up brothers and sisters Come here my desperate tale I speak of our friends of nature Trapped in the dirt like a jail Vegtables live in oppression Served on out tables each night This killing of veggies is madness I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers Cole Slaw's a fascist regime Don't think that they don't have feelings Just cause a radish can't scream
I've heard the screams of the vegtables Watching theirs skins being peeled Grated and steamed with no mercy.. How do you think that feels? Carrot juice constitutes muder.. Greenhouses prisons for slaves It's time to stop all this gardening Let's call a spade a spade.
I saw a man eating celery So I beat him black and blue If he ever touches a sprout again I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner Trapped in a windowless cage Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips By killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me This is my finest hour.. I'd kill those farmers again Just to save one more cauliflower
I've heard the screams of the vegtables Watching theirs skins being peeled Grated and steamed with no mercy.. How do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes muder.. Greenhouses prisons for slaves It's time to stop all this gardening Let's call a spade a spade.
How low as people do we dare to stoop Making our brocolies bleed in the soup? Untie your beans,
Uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, Don't mash that potato! (Spare the spud, eat a cow instead!)
I've heard the screams of the vegtables Watching theirs skins being peeled Grated and steamed with no mercy.. How do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes muder.. Greenhouses prisons for slaves It's time to stop all this gardening Let's call a spade a spade. Is a spade is a spade is a spade Is a spade...

From: Tony Reed (trljc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:29:32 -0400

In article <3ef9313b.172566785@no-spam>,
Determinator@no-spam (Determinator) wrote:

: ARTIST: Arrogant Worms : TITLE: Carrot Juice Is Murder
Cool. I could never remember where I heard that. In the back of my addled brain, I thought it was "Phoebe" from Friends, you know: "Smelly cat, smelly cat, what have they been feeding you."

Tony "dontcha just love pop culture?" Reed.


From: Tony Reed (trljc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:34:53 -0400

In article <pi9Ka.38650$bZ.321873@no-spam>,
"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:

: My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant. Who the heck do we : think we are that we can just take over the whole planet and destroy the : lives of every other species? Can you even conceive of a valid response?

"That's just the way it is, dude," comes to mind.

Take your beef cow, you know, your Black Angus or your White-faced Hereford, your basic pot-roast-on-the-hoof. Wouldn't exist if we didn't raise 'em for food. You never hear about roving bands of wild cows, do you? Bunch of bovine cud-chewing morons. Would you let your sister marry one?
Am I better than them? You bet.
-- Tony Reed <trljc@no-spam>
Some of us are Outlaws, and some Trespassers upon the very World. -- Thomas Pynchon

From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:28:42 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:Xi9Ka.38654$bZ.321886@no-spam > What part did you find silly?

The part where you suggest humans are not superior to animals. I hate to tell you this, but humans are a far superior creation than cattle.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:34:11 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:pi9Ka.38650$bZ.321873@no-spam > My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant. Who the heck do we > think we are that we can just take over the whole planet and destroy the > lives of every other species? Can you even conceive of a valid response?

So it's my fault that we developed far beyond the capabilities of animals?


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:08:16 -0400

In intellect, but that is not the only yard stick. [see next posting]

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:eZkKa.279486$3C2.8071002@no-spam >
> "Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message > news:Xi9Ka.38654$bZ.321886@no-spam > > What part did you find silly?
>
> The part where you suggest humans are not superior to animals. I hate > to tell you this, but humans are a far superior creation than cattle.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:14:32 -0400

It's not a matter of fault.

So what if humans possess more intellect than other life forms. I don't see how this fact gives humans the right to destroy every life form on earth.
Care to enlighten me as to how one implies the other? It seems that you are implying that intellectual superiority begets destructive superiority. Or, is it simply not possible for humans to coexist with any other life forms without destroying everything?

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:n2lKa.307295$Vi5.8154577@no-spam > So it's my fault that we developed far beyond the capabilities of animals?


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:07:47 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:cElKa.32975$j56.341276@no-spam > It's not a matter of fault.
>
> So what if humans possess more intellect than other life forms. I don't see > how this fact gives humans the right to destroy every life form on earth.
> Care to enlighten me as to how one implies the other? It seems that you are > implying that intellectual superiority begets destructive superiority.
Or, is > it simply not possible for humans to coexist with any other life forms without > destroying everything?

Those who are superior dominate. That's how it is in nature as well.
The weaker animals are destroyed by the stronger animals - it's called nature. Go stand in the forest for a while. See how long it takes a bear to rip you apart. Trust me, the bear won't care about your feelings at all.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:11:39 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:jylKa.32974$j56.341151@no-spam > In intellect, but that is not the only yard stick. [see next posting]

Well....what other "yard stick" is there. Evolution has seen man become the dominant species on the planet. We have the capacity to think and do whatever we wish. When Bovine Ingenuity rivals human intelligence, come knock on my door. The bottom line is that these precious cattle, chickens (etc) that everyone wants to protect wouldn't even exist if it weren't for human consumption. How many chickens would be running through the forest?
Not many. You know why? Because the other animals would eat them.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:01:48 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:5ImKa.33154$j56.345006@no-spam > You show me a bear that is taking more than what it needs at any particular > moment. I don't see too many self-important bears running around collecting > entire species and keeping them in a pen so that when it decides that it is > hungry, it can grab some fast food.
>
> I can see that this is not getting anywhere, so I will be bowing out.

Maybe it would if you didn't have such a close-minded view of the world.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:12:24 -0400

Well, the bottom line is that humans are f*cking up the planet. I assert that as an axiom. So, every conclusion that I arrive at must be a derivative of this fact. If that's your definition of close-minded, then welcome to the club. Since you switched topics to close-mindedness, I would like to know how your views are any less close-minded.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:McnKa.282153$ro6.7249504@no-spam > Maybe it would if you didn't have such a close-minded view of the world.


From: Tony Reed (trljc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:24:50 -0400

In article <ImnKa.33384$j56.347823@no-spam>,
"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:

: Well, the bottom line is that humans are f*cking up the planet. I assert that
: as an axiom. So, every conclusion that I arrive at must be a derivative of : this fact.

Well, Ray, I agree with that. It doesn't follow that we should all be veggie-wegans though.

'Minds me of my days flirting with the loonie left: "How can you be opposed to nulear* war if you still eat red meat?" Huh?
I drink French wine, even though I want reparation from those bastard Normans for invading and occupying my homeland and killing my dear King Harold.

* Most people who said things like that pronounced it "nucular."
Didja see, that Eves bozo, says he din't barbecue last night, ordered Swill Chalet instead, so's not to hurt the environment. Gawd, says it all about Ontario. Mouth-breather prob'ly washed it down with Baby Duck, very sophisticated tipple among your Toronto types.
-- Tony Reed <trljc@no-spam>
In our house we call them "Hastings Fries."


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:51:25 -0400

My main point was and remains that humans are not being humane with the animals that they wish to ingest. If you visit the PETA web site, you can view video of the abusive treatment of animals. It is this gross behaviour that is the most disturbing.

I have never implied that everyone should become "veggie-wegans". If only everyone would exercise a bit of discretion in the selection of the source of their animal flesh. Have you no problem subsidizing the salaries of people that abuse animals by dragging them by their hooves behind a vehicle because the animal didn't immediately gallop to the slaughterhouse at the whim of the employee?

The problem is not with the average joe that goes out and hunts a few individuals and brings them home. The problem is with the unconsionable members of the so-called superior species that massacre (humainly or not is irrelevant) hundreds of animals per day. What type of individual does it take to be able to do this? Certainly not a member of a "superior" species.

I don't see how the anecdotes in the rest of your posting apply to this thread.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"Tony Reed" <trljc@no-spam> wrote in message news:RipKa.3999$iM4.584007@no-spam > In article <ImnKa.33384$j56.347823@no-spam>,
> "Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:
>
> : Well, the bottom line is that humans are f*cking up the planet. I assert that > : as an axiom. So, every conclusion that I arrive at must be a derivative of > : this fact.
>
> Well, Ray, I agree with that. It doesn't follow that we should all be > veggie-wegans though.
>
> 'Minds me of my days flirting with the loonie left: "How can you be > opposed to nulear* war if you still eat red meat?" Huh?
>
> I drink French wine, even though I want reparation from those bastard > Normans for invading and occupying my homeland and killing my dear King > Harold.
>
> * Most people who said things like that pronounced it "nucular."
>
> Didja see, that Eves bozo, says he din't barbecue last night, ordered > Swill Chalet instead, so's not to hurt the environment. Gawd, says it > all about Ontario. Mouth-breather prob'ly washed it down with Baby Duck,
> very sophisticated tipple among your Toronto types.
> -- > Tony Reed > <trljc@no-spam>
> In our house we call them "Hastings Fries."


From: "Reason" (peterJ@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:42:41 GMT

"Alan Baker" <alangbaker@no-spam> wrote in message news:alangbaker-51AAA9.22065624062003@no-spam > In article <pi9Ka.38650$bZ.321873@no-spam>,
> "Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant. Who the heck do we > > think we are that we can just take over the whole planet and destroy the > > lives of every other species? Can you even conceive of a valid response?
> >
> > -Ray.
>
> You do realize that there are entire species that would be destroyed if > we *stopped* farming.

Very true. When the world was pristine and untouched by agriculture a few thousand years ago, it could only support a few hundred thousand humans,
who has a very rough existence by browsing, foraging and hunting. Such a life was far more troubled and difficult than almost anyone today is likely to experience. If you want to scrap agriculture and return to that, you will have very few takers.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:18:19 -0400

I agree entirely. Again, my main problem is that humans seem to be causing/allowing every other species to be removed from the equation. This is not acceptable.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"Reason" <peterJ@no-spam> wrote in message news:mYuKa.287022$ro6.7322844@no-spam > We have learned a few lessons from the past, and we should foster more > efforts for conservation and preservation of biodiversity. Humans are a > natural part of the biosphere; the earth spawned us, and we have a rightful > place in the ecosystem. We as a species are part of the equation and we > can't be removed.


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:33:10 GMT

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:vx3Ka.274246$3C2.7914290@no-spam
> Are you suggesting that Cows and Chickens are superior to Humans?

Maybe not at this moment. But who can say what the evolutionary process has in store?


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:33:51 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:pi9Ka.38650$bZ.321873@no-spam
> My main point is that humans are absurdly arrogant.

Amen.


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:37:02 GMT

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:7qmKa.307767$Vi5.8158717@no-spam
> Those who are superior dominate. That's how it is in nature as well.
> The weaker animals are destroyed by the stronger animals - it's called > nature. Go stand in the forest for a while. See how long it takes a bear > to rip you apart. Trust me, the bear won't care about your feelings at all.

The difference being that humans have the intelligence to know better. And some of us have the morals to act better.


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:38:25 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:5ImKa.33154$j56.345006@no-spam
> You show me a bear that is taking more than what it needs at any particular > moment.

Didn't you ever watch Yogi Bear as a child? As I recall, picnic baskets weren't very safe ;)


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:41:47 GMT

"Reason" <peterJ@no-spam> wrote in message news:mYuKa.287022$ro6.7322844@no-spam
> We as a species are part of the equation and we can't be removed.

If we don't do it to ourselves, which is a distinct possibility, all it would take is one asteroid.
We're not invincible.


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:43:48 GMT

"Reason" <peterJ@no-spam> wrote in message news:iIuKa.285125$3C2.8154046@no-spam
> "Oppression" is already a highly subjective word at the best of times, but > to apply it to chickens is plainly absurd.

I'm sure that if the chicken could communicate with you it would disagree.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:52:42 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:ImnKa.33384$j56.347823@no-spam > Well, the bottom line is that humans are f*cking up the planet.

You're more than welcome to remove yourself from the problem. There's gotta be a bridge somewhere near your home.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:56:30 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:BksKa.36474$j56.400832@no-spam > My main point was and remains that humans are not being humane with the > animals that they wish to ingest. If you visit the PETA web site, you can > view video of the abusive treatment of animals. It is this gross behaviour > that is the most disturbing.

News flash - humans are cruel to each other as well. How about we solve that problem first.

> I have never implied that everyone should become "veggie-wegans". If only > everyone would exercise a bit of discretion in the selection of the source > of their animal flesh. Have you no problem subsidizing the salaries of > people that abuse animals by dragging them by their hooves behind a vehicle > because the animal didn't immediately gallop to the slaughterhouse at the > whim of the employee?

It's wonderful to see Brainwashing alive and well in the world......

> The problem is not with the average joe that goes out and hunts a few > individuals and brings them home. The problem is with the unconsionable > members of the so-called superior species that massacre (humainly or not is > irrelevant) hundreds of animals per day. What type of individual does it > take to be able to do this? Certainly not a member of a "superior"
species.

Because we all need to eat. Not everyone has the time, ability or equipment to hunt for food. Yet you still have to eat. Maybe we should ban farming as well. Afterall, if you didn't get it yourself - you don't deserve it.

> I don't see how the anecdotes in the rest of your posting apply to this > thread.

Virtually nothing you've posted is relevant, but we don't bitch at you for it.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:01:06 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:StCKa.1194$WO6.6144@no-spam > I agree entirely. Again, my main problem is that humans seem to be > causing/allowing every other species to be removed from the equation.
This is > not acceptable.

Endangered animals protection. Ever hear of it? There's steps being actively taken each and every day to try and repair the damage caused in the past.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:30:16 GMT

"CuriousFellow" <CuriousFellow@no-spam> wrote in message news:8pFKa.22066$O31.17967@no-spam > "Reason" <peterJ@no-spam> wrote in message > news:iIuKa.285125$3C2.8154046@no-spam >
> > "Oppression" is already a highly subjective word at the best of times,
but > > to apply it to chickens is plainly absurd.
>
> I'm sure that if the chicken could communicate with you it would disagree.

But that's the point - it can't. A chicken isn't intelligent enough to do anything other than eat, sleep and cluck.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:30:48 -0400

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:2BFKa.293963$ro6.7382976@no-spam > News flash - humans are cruel to each other as well. How about we solve > that problem first.

No, there are already plenty of laws protecting humans. These same f*ck-wads that are cruel to humans are the same ones that are cruel to other life forms.
DUH!

> It's wonderful to see Brainwashing alive and well in the world......

On the other hand, it is alarming to see that mass ignorance is alive and apparently well. When does your membership expire?

> Because we all need to eat. Not everyone has the time, ability or > equipment to hunt for food.

Poor baby. Here's a mini fiddle for you...

-Ray.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:33:02 -0400

What past? There is no past, there is only the present and the future.
Humans continue f*cking up the planet, then enact weak laws to make it appear that they give a rat's ass, yet continue f*cking up the planet at any cost.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:mFFKa.292666$3C2.8226360@no-spam >
> "Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message > news:StCKa.1194$WO6.6144@no-spam > > I agree entirely. Again, my main problem is that humans seem to be > > causing/allowing every other species to be removed from the equation.
> This is > > not acceptable.
>
> Endangered animals protection. Ever hear of it? There's steps being > actively taken each and every day to try and repair the damage caused in the > past.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:34:18 -0400

There are numerous humans that can't even do that. So, by your "logic" they are dispensable. Why not use them as feed at the zoos?

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:I4GKa.294266$ro6.7385039@no-spam >
> "CuriousFellow" <CuriousFellow@no-spam> wrote in message > news:8pFKa.22066$O31.17967@no-spam > > "Reason" <peterJ@no-spam> wrote in message > > news:iIuKa.285125$3C2.8154046@no-spam > >
> > > "Oppression" is already a highly subjective word at the best of times,
> but > > > to apply it to chickens is plainly absurd.
> >
> > I'm sure that if the chicken could communicate with you it would disagree.
>
> But that's the point - it can't. A chicken isn't intelligent enough to > do anything other than eat, sleep and cluck.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:43:51 -0400

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:2BFKa.293963$ro6.7382976@no-spam > News flash - humans are cruel to each other as well. How about we solve > that problem first.

No, there are already plenty of laws protecting humans. Many of the same f*ck-wads that are cruel to humans also are cruel to other life forms. DUH!

> It's wonderful to see Brainwashing alive and well in the world......

On the other hand, it is alarming to see that mass ignorance is alive and apparently well. When does your membership expire?

> Because we all need to eat. Not everyone has the time, ability or > equipment to hunt for food.

Poor baby. Here's a mini fiddle for you...

-Ray.


From: Carter Lee (crlee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:29:04 GMT

Ray Goudie wrote:
> > What past? There is no past, there is only the present and the future.

No? If that's true and unless you are less than one day old you don't exist.

Carter

From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:19:23 GMT

> No, there are already plenty of laws protecting humans. These same f*ck-wads > that are cruel to humans are the same ones that are cruel to other life forms.
> DUH!

Guess what? There are plenty of laws protecting animals as well. But like all other laws, there are always those willing to go beyond law for their personal reasons - justified or otherwise.

> > It's wonderful to see Brainwashing alive and well in the world......
>
> On the other hand, it is alarming to see that mass ignorance is alive and > apparently well. When does your membership expire?

What you're saying is that raising (For example) cattle and chickens for consumption is unethical, and that the only time we should be eating animals is if we catch them ourselves? It was that type of mentality that led to the near extinction of animals like the Buffalo. And without domestication there wouldn't the needed supply to meet the world's needs.

> > Because we all need to eat. Not everyone has the time, ability or > > equipment to hunt for food.
>
> Poor baby. Here's a mini fiddle for you...

Well you make the arguement against raising game for consumption, and I simply explained why it's done. Even simple logic and fact isn't good enough for you.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:22:01 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:i7GKa.1219$WO6.12409@no-spam > What past? There is no past, there is only the present and the future.
> Humans continue f*cking up the planet, then enact weak laws to make it appear > that they give a rat's ass, yet continue f*cking up the planet at any cost.

Wow! That is one the dumbest things I've ever heard on Usenet.
Congrats, I think.

What you've built your entire arguement on is that people abuse animals,
and have done so since the dawn of time. Now you're saying that what happened before has no relevance? Hmm, just like your "Point" I suppose.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:40:44 -0400

And a pen is still a pen, and a shoelace is still a shoelace. You're a fine one to accuse others of posting dumbness.

The ignorant will often resort to crassness when they really had nothing to stand on. I'll leave you to your ignorance and hope you wake up one day.

Isn't it time for you to cross the street for your quick fix of cow flesh?

Unless you have anything worthwhile to post, I'm done with this thread.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy.

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:3LHKa.293978$3C2.8232508@no-spam >
> "Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message > news:u8GKa.1220$WO6.12471@no-spam > > There are numerous humans that can't even do that. So, by your "logic"
> they > > are dispensable. Why not use them as feed at the zoos?
>
> A human is still a human. I would argue the most mentally challenged > human could still easily outsmart a chicken. Why don't we pit you against a > chicken and prove it?


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:46:29 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:_XHKa.1248$WO6.15211@no-spam > *sigh* Okay, I'll spell it out for you:
>
> What you were implying is that the damage was in the past and that humans have > ceased their destructive ways and are now trying to rectify things. I replied > that nothing is in the past; it is still happening and will still happen.

See, wasn't that easier? And yes, there are still abuses. But what you seem to fail to understand/accept is that there is more awareness of our impact on the planet than there ever has been. The problems aren't going to suddenly cease to exist, but rather it's a long term project that is going to take (Likely) centuries.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:51:18 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:0%HKa.1249$WO6.15289@no-spam > And a pen is still a pen, and a shoelace is still a shoelace. You're a fine > one to accuse others of posting dumbness.
>
> The ignorant will often resort to crassness when they really had nothing to > stand on. I'll leave you to your ignorance and hope you wake up one day.

Funny, seems to me that you just did the exact same thing.......

> Isn't it time for you to cross the street for your quick fix of cow flesh?

Yup. Can hardly wait to fire up the barbeque tonight. Or maybe I'll just make some veal.

> Unless you have anything worthwhile to post, I'm done with this thread.

Hmmmm, seems to me that your entire "Point" has been a waste of breath.
Do you really think you should be the one judging the validity of others'
thoughts, when you clearly refuse to accept valid points in a discussion?
Making assinine statements like chickens and cows are superior to humans is simply weak. And they show who really doesn't have a leg to stand on. If our ancestors hadn't eaten meat, our species would have died out thousands of years ago. And that's fact based on science, something that you simply cannot refute.


From: Carter Lee (crlee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:10:47 GMT

Ray Goudie wrote:
> > *sigh* Okay, I'll spell it out for you:
> > What you were implying is that the damage was in the past and that humans have
> ceased their destructive ways and are now trying to rectify things. I replied
> that nothing is in the past; it is still happening and will still happen.

No, that's not what you replied. This is what you replied;

"What past? There is no past, there is only the present and the future.
Humans continue f*cking up the planet, then enact weak laws to make it appear that they give a rat's ass, yet continue f*cking up the planet at any cost."

Carter

From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:02:24 -0400

Some people need more help than others.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"Carter Lee" <crlee@no-spam> wrote in message news:3EFB7E27.EC563194@no-spam > Ray Goudie wrote:
> >
> > *sigh* Okay, I'll spell it out for you:
> >
> > What you were implying is that the damage was in the past and that humans have > > ceased their destructive ways and are now trying to rectify things. I replied > > that nothing is in the past; it is still happening and will still happen.
>
> No, that's not what you replied. This is what you replied;
>
> "What past? There is no past, there is only the present and the future.
> Humans continue f*cking up the planet, then enact weak laws to make it > appear > that they give a rat's ass, yet continue f*cking up the planet at any > cost."
>
> Carter

From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:34:01 GMT

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:I4GKa.294266

> > I'm sure that if the chicken could communicate with you it would disagree.
>
> But that's the point - it can't. A chicken isn't intelligent enough to > do anything other than eat, sleep and cluck.

But chickens, and other animals, are sentient. They are self-aware. They "feel" discomfort, pain, etc. just as we do. Even if they're not capable of complaining to you.


From: "CuriousFellow" (CuriousFellow@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:36:44 GMT

"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:qVJKa.323778$Vi5.8322520@no-spam >
> If our ancestors hadn't eaten meat, our species would have died out thousands > of years ago. And that's fact based on science, something that you simply > cannot refute.

As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, while it may have been necessary for earlier variants of our species to eat meat, we have long since evolved from there. Or at least, some of us have.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:24:09 GMT

"CuriousFellow" <CuriousFellow@no-spam> wrote in message news:MeUKa.69$a51.31@no-spam > "News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message > news:qVJKa.323778$Vi5.8322520@no-spam > >
> > If our ancestors hadn't eaten meat, our species would have died out > thousands > > of years ago. And that's fact based on science, something that you simply > > cannot refute.
>
> As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, while it may have been necessary > for earlier variants of our species to eat meat, we have long since evolved > from there. Or at least, some of us have.

Have we really? What are the long term effects of a Vegan Lifestyle?
Can you show me any studies that have been done, or something even remotely scientific? We all know the possible risks of a rich diet, ranging from Gout to Heart Disease, but we also know that everything in moderation is the appropriate diet. Ask a doctor, a nutritionist - Hell, even Health Canada.
Cutting a food group out of your diet could very well be more harmful than keeping it in your diet, in moderation.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:26:18 GMT

> But chickens, and other animals, are sentient. They are self-aware. They > "feel" discomfort, pain, etc. just as we do. Even if they're not capable of > complaining to you.

Well I suggest you start buying all the chickens and cattle then. They are raised for a purpose, and that cycle will always be completed. My steak was extra good last night by the way. I could really taste the cruelty and strife the poor cow suffered while laying around in a field it's whole life.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:38:20 -0400

What a totally disgusting entity you are. You are not even in the same league as a fly larva.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:_D2La.308293$ro6.7514443@no-spam > Well I suggest you start buying all the chickens and cattle then.
They > are raised for a purpose, and that cycle will always be completed. My steak > was extra good last night by the way. I could really taste the cruelty and > strife the poor cow suffered while laying around in a field it's whole life.


From: Tony Reed (trljc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:12:16 -0400

In article <UamLa.6409$zX5.163275@no-spam>,
"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:

: What a totally disgusting entity you are. You are not even in the same : league as a fly larva.

Myself, I like that Kobe beef. I had it once, when I lived out in the less-than-mystical east. They pamper these beasts, give them massages and spiritually healing holistic aroma-dramatic therapy, then whack 'em on the head so the rich oppressors can eat 'em.

I ate beaver once. No, really, the kind that builds dams and screws up your landscaping. It was oily. No really ...
Pork chops tonight, Ray, me ol' china. Yum, yum. piggie's bum!

Tony "buddy can you spare a paradigm?" Reed.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:25:59 GMT

> That kind of response has no chance of influencing me to question my > opinion. If anything, I'm repulsed by your apparent insensitivity.

I was being extremely dramatic. The point that I was trying to make is that Livestock (Generally Speaking) have a very good life. When the livestock is your means of employment you tend to do anything that improves their lives, afterall a healthy animal is by far more valuable than an unhealthy animal. With the exception of the "End", livestock typically live a very good life. A few days on a working cattle farm will show you that.

The point is that at typical Vegan claim is that these animals are abused and tortured etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is that they generally are not. While there are always going to be bad apples, the vast vast vast majority of farmers/ranchers understand that if their livestock isn't in good condition, they aren't goign to make any money.


From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:30:16 GMT

"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote in message news:UamLa.6409$zX5.163275@no-spam > What a totally disgusting entity you are. You are not even in the same > league as a fly larva.

Just trying to live up the sterotype you seem to project onto meat eaters. You have demonstrated over and over again that you haven't got a clue what the typical livestock lifestyle is. You base all of your opinions on the rhetoric you've read, but have never bothered to look at both sides of the issue. Everyone is wrong, because YOU say so.


From: "Ray Goudie" (rgoudie@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:51:34 -0400

http://www.animalfreedom.org/video/videos.html
http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/archive.html
http://www.meatstinks.com/pigcasevid.html
http://heg.sphosting.com/videoresources.html
http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm
http://www.eatinganimals.com/multi.html
http://www.viva.org.uk/Video/video.htm
Perhaps now you will see how you contribute to the suffering.

-Ray.

-- It's pronounced Gow'-dy
"News" <newsreader234@no-spam> wrote in message news:Is_La.325378 > You have demonstrated over and over again that you haven't got a > clue what the typical livestock lifestyle is.


From: Tony Reed (trljc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:29:57 -0400

In article <Z93Ma.22405$104.266037@no-spam>,
"Ray Goudie" <rgoudie@no-spam> wrote:

: Perhaps now you will see how you contribute to the suffering.
: : -Ray.

C'mon Ray, that's like pointing atheists at all the Christian websites you can think of. No one's gonna stop eating meat because a few evangelist whackos think we should. It just ain't natural. I thought you were going to stop responding to this thread?
-- Tony Reed <trljc@no-spam>
Some of us are Outlaws, and some Trespassers upon the very World. -- Thomas Pynchon

From: "News" (newsreader234@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Do vegans have passivity issues?
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:03:05 GMT

> C'mon Ray, that's like pointing atheists at all the Christian websites > you can think of. No one's gonna stop eating meat because a few > evangelist whackos think we should. It just ain't natural. I thought > you were going to stop responding to this thread?

Tony, that is actually a pretty good way of looking at things. I'm all against cruelty to animals (Like Puppy Mills etc) but I think that the average Vegan (Especially the uneducated wanna-be type) really doesn't understand what conditions are like on cattle farms or chicken farms or pig farms. (Etc) As I've said before, I know a "True" Vegan and have met a few others. Most of them fall into the propoganda and think that Cattle are being abused and tortured etc etc etc, when the the fact is that is far from the truth. I still say that there are bound to be bad apples in the industry, but to paint all cattle producers (Etc) as cruel animal abusers just shows ignorance of the facts. I always suggest a trip to a working livestock farm. It may not make you change your mind about eating meat (And that's you decision to make) but it often times opens eyes as to how the animals are actually treated.