Hi, I was wondering if people could just list the ways (common and unique) that they are making money using Adobe Premiere, After Effects, etc. After finding out that what I was originally thinking of doing is going to be illegal, I am searching for a different way to make money. I would greatly appreciate any responses.
Thanks,
Kyle
I really would like to know the same, how people make money with them :) ... anyway Chri Poisson, could i ask you which kind of education do you have ? Film school, design, fine art, training by yourself ?
Thanks for the response, Chris. I was actually planning on turning people's old slides and photos into slideshows on DVD's. Then I was going to put the music from the CD's THEY OWN into the background. However, I've found out that that is probably breaking at least three copyright laws. So my original hopes have turned to mush.
Thanks again for the help.
Kyle
Oh brother! Kyle, the laws for what you are thinking about are among the most blurry around.
Yes, technically you would be violating the copywrites of the record lable, the artist, composers, performers, and owners of the piece(s).
But the instances of such usage as you describe are so rampant, I mean just look at the whole Mp3/Napster thing among others.
Am I suggesting that you go ahead and use whatever you want? No, and I would ask a lawyer to define "personal use" as it would pertain to your potential clients.
What I WOULD suggest, and I do this all the time, is make those animated photo albums with music you CAN own, freeplaymusic.com is totally free and they have some cool stuff, or there are tons of other royalty free music houses that are very good and very cheap.
hard_pillow,
I went to the School of Visual Arts and NYU design and film schools at night back in the mid 70's. I was an art director in the promotion department at WPIX TV in Manhattan at the time, where my interest in broadcast began. I then spent 28 years in the agency biz as an art/creative director. I did many hundreds of commercials with budgets ranging from $0 to well over half a million bucks.
In January of 2002 I was laid off from my agency of 10 years, 2.5 the last of which I was doing editing and After Effects, all self taught with the aid of Total Training tapes and many books, and to a large extent, this forum.
So I have been freelancing out of my house for the last year and a half, and it has been pretty good except the summer really sucks. So I have time to catch up and write overly long responses here.
My steady clients are a group of car dealers, a couple of restaurant chains, The Young Presidents Organization, several agencies and media buying services and even the agency that fired me! As I said above, you have to make an effort to find clients, remember that your niche is to be like an anti-ad agency, because there are lots of clients out there who hate the traditional agency relationship.
Regards...
Chris, you are very right about how blurry those copyright laws are. Especially since I would only be doing this for families to view in the privacy of their own homes. I've already talked to two lawyers about it, and they knew about as much as I did. It gets really fuzzy if you're using the music in anything that generates a profit. If I were to go to court with it, would I win?....I would definitely put up a good fight. If I were to go to court with it, would I have enough money for legal expenses?...maybe if I got donations.
I've actually looked at freeplaymusic.com and others. They have pretty good stuff, but I don't know if it comes close to original movie scores, etc. I will probably go with the royalty-free music, but I will probably have to look at other profitable possibilities.
Chris, it really seems like you have a great network of clients. I'm glad to hear that you've made money using After Effects, etc. Thanks for all the help.
Kyle
You could compose your own music loops using something like Apple's Soundtrack (or Adobe's Audition for PC). It might be cheaper than buying royalty-free stock music.
Anytime my friend!
Another thought, on a family video I did recently, the 50something client wanted to do a History Channel-like video about his 80 something parents and their family history, and he wrote a 15 minute narration to which I animated all the stills. I also went to his parents house and videotaped them speaking about their lives for about an hour, the whole thing came out to be about a half hour and was really moving, so music had very little to do with it. Just used Freeplay as background. He ordered 20 DVD's of it!
So perhaps this gives you ideas on how to workaround copyrights.
Seeya...
Just to pick up on your last comment, Chris - if you *had* been able to use
any music you liked, just think of how much value/emotion/weight the piece
would have had. I used to own my own label years ago (the net wasn't really
around much then) and the amount people paid then was phenominal if it fit
the project and usually it made the final project so much more than just the
sum of the two. Just my 0.2
Thanks for all the ideas and help, everyone. I appreciate the effort put into responding.
Kyle
Kyle
I know of a business in my neighborhood that transfers old home 8mm to video and they will put any music you want to it. They are located on a main street and have been there years. Many of their clients are from the film and music industry.
Ironic.
Jake
Thanks, Jake. Do you know if they by the rights for those songs, though? But I do know what you mean. Just try a search on Google for "DVD slideshow," and you'll get countless companies offering to put your music CD's in the background. I guess that's the way it goes. Maybe I'm avoiding something that really would never get anyone in trouble, but who knows?
Anyways, thanks again for the help and the heads-up.
Kyle
Kyle, I think that's pretty much a standard thing, I know many who offer to put the client's music as background to slideshows ect....and I know they don't buy the rights because that would cost a mint with most of todays music. I would do it if I were you and will for clients myself, that is for home stuff...I wouldn't do it for say a company that wanted me to produce a corp. video, that's getting a little into a grey area there, but for the home style video thing I don't think you will ever have a problem...so go for it. I too was parnoid knowing the copyright laws at first, but there are rights on both sides of the fence and so many people do it for their home style videos and slideshows.
Hey Kyle,
If you're really worried about it, have your families sign a contract with an indemnity clause to where all responsibility transfers to the family.
Your not mass producing a single product with the same music. You're providing a service with photos and music provided to you by your "client". Chances are, Metallica or Madonna won't be visiting their friends' friends house and whatch the family photo album on a dvd blaring Harvester of Sorrow or Material Girl in the background.
So you're most likely in the clear either way.
Thanks, guys. I really, really appreciate the help. I actually thought about the indemnity clause thing, but I don't think that applies to this situation (but please correct me if I'm wrong). I guess I really don't see any harm in the situation. I would actually think that it might cause these people to go out and buy the albums they want on the video because I won't be accepting music downloaded from Kazaa or Imesh.
Anyways, I thank everyone very much for contributing. It has helped to give me hope again.
Thanks,
Kyle
Hey Jake--do you mind giving me the name of the place where you had your 8mm transferred? Nothing here in Chicago, or perhaps I've not looked hard enough. Thanks much...
Zach,
The way I understand the copyright law, literally everyone who has anything to do with the reproduction of protected music is liable, indemnity clause or not. I got this from a copyright laywer who spoke at an ad club meeting several years ago.
That means if you send your project to a dub house for copies, they could end up in court with you.
I think the reason you hear so little about folks getting sued for this is because as someone above said, everyone is doing it. So like cheating on your taxes, the chances of getiing caught are slim, plus, it would cost so much to catch everyone it's not financially viable for the industry to do it.
Kyle,
I just remembered a funny story about this kind of video, I think there's a couple of firms around here that do them called "Family Tree" video or something.
I was back in Connecticut a couple of months ago and was leafing through the local yellow pages when I saw an ad for this kind of thing so I called for a price. "A buck a shot, titles are free" the guy said. Holy s**t, I thought, how the heck can you make a living for a dollar a shot? What a funny business.
I think it's actually less money if I'd be doing the slideshow thing, but it is still way too expensive to even consider.
Chris, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly does Apple's Soundtrack do (as I am a PC user)? And what exactly did you mean by, "you could try to rip off any music you like"? I'm sorry I did not catch what you meant, but there are way too many meanings to the word "rip" these days.
Thanks,
Kyle
Soundtrack is a music loop program much like Acid on the PC. In fact, I believe an egineer from Acid went to work for apple and developed it.
It came with FCP 4 and is really cool. There's thousands of music loops which you drag and drop into the timeline, with or without a movie in the project window. You can drag each to change it's duration, it's super easy and very fun.
When I said "rip off" I meant trying to get close to a pop tune without actually coping it. this is done all the time by music houses. I don't know how well Soundtrack could do it, just a thought, it would probably help to get a bunch of third party loops you might need for a particular tune.
Thanks, Chris. That is all very good information. Sorry for not understanding what you meant at first. In any case, it appears that I will still be able to make DVDs for people.
Thanks again,
Kyle
There's a whole genre of stock music called "sound alikes". You'd be surprised how close they get to capturing the feeling of certain well known tunes (and still remain legal).
do a search for pastiche
On the other hand, if the company wants to sue you, you'd be surprised how easy it can be...
I scored a film once about alien abduction. It was actually more about abductees, so I wanted to base the main melody on a kind of skewed version of The Mickey Mouse Club. The director/producer liked the idea and the track, but said that basically what it comes down to is this: if Disney wanted to sue us they'd have a jury listen to the two tracks and if there recognizable similarities.... we lose. Maybe he was just trying to scare me, because I always thought there was some particular equation, but eviddently not.
Thanks again for the help everyone. I really appreciate it.
Kyle
Ways to hook clients:
1. The client is due at 9. Get there at 8. Have some coffe, surf the web, listen to some tunes and chill. a good vibe is a requirement.
2. Make sure they are comfy. Buy lunch and be happy about it. Cover any couriour/shipping costs. People love being pampered and love free stuff.
3. Keep conversation going. This person can find great quality at a great price anywhere in town. They better have a good time with you.
4. Pour on your specialty. Don't hesitiate to hang back off the clock to get that look just perfect. You won't always have to do this... round down hours. You do have to impress at first though. There is just no better way than to have finished product that freakin rocks the waaay before the deadline.
5. Sink the deal. The single easiest way to get them to return is to book it that day. Simply ask them when their next project is and if there is anything you should do to prepare for it. Not only is it ok to assume thay are coming back, it's good to show your confinence.
6. Again, round down. You worked for 22 hours. Note it on the invoice then charge for 20. Often this makes the check writer happy and often the check-writer is not the producer at all.
7. Above all, have fun. If you love it it will show. If your happy people will garvitate toward you.
<http://grinnerhester.com/forum>
This probably sounds awful, but I don't do what grinner said, except for good vibes, fun, and awesome work. My experience has been that lots of those three things make the others unnecessary.
I would particularly object to the "waaay before the deadline" part. I have never ever ever ever found that to work out in the end. Good goal nonetheless.
"Good work" though, I can't recommend that enough.
I once heard a lecture from the big guys from MTV. They were talking about trying to find a studio to produce the big Flash site for MTV2. They searched everywhere but ended up with Digit, from London. They said the reason they picked them was because their work was awesome, they seemed like the kind of guys who would be up for a beer at the end of the day, and they were really fun (which was a requirement for close-quarters over a long period of time). For whatever that's worth.
good luck,
steven
Wow, thanks for the great advice, everyone. I cannot say just how grateful I am for all the help.
Thanks,
Kyle
Gents,
Has anyone heard of Family Tree Video? It's a home business being sold
as a franchise. They convert old family photos and film into
DVD/CD/VHS family movies. I'm interested in the franchise business
that they are proposing but I'm very skeptical of their earnings
claims which I'm presently trying to validate. The president of FTV
emailed me and indicated that as a franchisee I could earn $45K to
$150K per year from home. I pasted below his sales speil for your
review....It sounds great but I'm hoping that some of you gents and
ladies could comment on the reality of this business.
Any comments and pearls of wisdom to expedite my quest for clarity?
thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
STATSISTICS:
-Family Tree Video has been a $45,000 to $150,000 a year, Home-Based
business.
-clients paid $500 to $5000 "each"
-average charged to clients is $750 to $2000 ea.)
-90% of these productions took us only 2 to 6 hours to complete and
had a net
profit of $250 per hour and it cost me $10 per hour labor and $10 for
DVD
and VHS video blanks, UNDER $50!
-no overhead, no competition, a huge market
Franchise cost = $64K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Joe
"Chris Poisson" <poissonsaz@no-spam> wrote in message news:<1dea153d.15@no-spam>...
> Zach,
>
> The way I understand the copyright law, literally everyone who has anything to do with the reproduction of protected music is liable, indemnity clause or not. I got this from a copyright laywer who spoke at an ad club meeting several years ago.
>
> That means if you send your project to a dub house for copies, they could end up in court with you.
>
> I think the reason you hear so little about folks getting sued for this is because as someone above said, everyone is doing it. So like cheating on your taxes, the chances of getiing caught are slim, plus, it would cost so much to catch everyone it's not financially viable for the industry to do it.
>
> Kyle,
>
> I just remembered a funny story about this kind of video, I think there's a couple of firms around here that do them called "Family Tree" video or something.
>
> I was back in Connecticut a couple of months ago and was leafing through the local yellow pages when I saw an ad for this kind of thing so I called for a price. "A buck a shot, titles are free" the guy said. Holy s**t, I thought, how the heck can you make a living for a dollar a shot? What a funny business.