I have some gripes about Illustrator, as I'm sure we all do. Rather than just ranting though, I'm wondering if anyone can tell me why Adobe chose to make Illustrator behave the way it does. I recently downloaded the CS trial version to see if any of my gripes had been remedied. Sadly, only one has. Here are the remainders:
8.0.1 was the newest version at the time I started using Illustrator. Most of my gripes about Illustrator appeared in 9.0 and have not been fixed/changed in subsequent releases (9.x, 10.x, 11.x). The same problems are persistent across Windows & Macintosh platforms.
When opening Illustrator in Windows, window maximization is not persistent. All other programs I have (including other Adobe programs) do stay maximized, as they should. Also, when opening a file by clicking on it (rather than through the "open" dialog in Illustrator), Illustrator again becomes un-maximized.
You cannot move an object from a parent layer to a sublayer. Also, you can no longer move objects to hidden layers as you could in 8.x. If you really think that many people will be confused by this behavior, make it an option in the preferences panel and turned off by default.
All sublayers are expanded in the layers palette when opening a file. They should stay however they were when the file was closed. Or if they were all collapsed, that would still be better than all expanded.
You can no longer cycle through the hidden tools (i.e., pencil, smooth, erase) by pressing shift with the shortcut key. This worked in 8.x, but has been missing ever since. To make matters worse, when you switch to a different tool and then come back to the previous (hidden) tool using shortcut keys, it switches to the primary tool (i.e., pencil rather than smooth). The hidden tool should be persistent, as it was in version 8.x.
The measure tool has been moved from the hand/page tools and grouped with the eyedropper/paint bucket tools. This is stupid. It makes a lot more sense where it was, and everyone was used to it being there (although it's been a while now).
Empty text elements should just disappear rather than persisting as stray points.
Teri Pettit "Why are these features NOT in Illustrator CS?" 2/11/04 1:39pm </cgi-bin/webx?13@@no-spam>
Well, that post was an interesting read but didn't really address any of the issues I noted above. Unless your point was that none of my issues have been addressed because of all of the energy that goes into bickering about the major features in that post.
For the most part, Illustrator does everything (and then some) that I could ever need it to do. I have very little interest in petitioning for more major features compared to how I just wish some small things could be fixed - and most aren't even new features... they're things that have been broken since AI 8 or have been added in newer versions but did not implement all of the logical functionality.
I just wish some small things could be fixed - and most aren't even new
features.
That was the point.
Jeffrey,
I agree with you on every point.
=-= Harron =-=
The only thing that catches my eye as a rather strange statement is this:
You cannot move an object from a parent layer to a sublayer.
How about using the selection indicator (the small rectangle to the right of the circle icon of the layer)? Select an object(s), then grab the selection indicator of the layer (parent or whatever) and drag it to any layer you want to move the object(s) to. Alt-drag will copy rather than moving.
Alex,
Unless I'm missing something, the method you suggest for moving an object from a parent layer to a sublayer is exactly what won't work. When you drag the selection indicator from the parent to the sub, it turns into a "you can't do that" symbol (circle with a slash through it). The only way to move an object from a parent to a sublayer is to first move it from the parent to a separate layer and then move it from that layer to the sublayer where you want it - a totally superfluous step.
The one thing that has been fixed since 9.0 is that when you copy (or cut) and paste using ctrl-C/ctrl-V on a sublayer, it actually keeps the copy on the sublayer. Previously, it put the copy on the parent layer. That of course was all the more infuriating when you can't move the object directly from the parent layer back to the sublayer where it's supposed to be. (however, ctrl-F/B and alt-dragging the object on the artboard has always correctly kept the copy on the same layer)
And thank you Harron for your support. :)
-jeff
Jeffrey
I share most of your gripes. But I don't understand what you mean by window maximization being persistent. The window size is saved along with the document, as I think it shold be.
Also, I agree with Alexander. I can move objects freely from parent layer to sublayer or sub-sublayer, by dragging the selection indicator from parent to sublayer. I cannot get the "you can't do that" symbol unless the layer is locked or hidden.
Jeffrey,
I cannot share your trouble with moving from parent to sublayers, too. Moving to hidden or locked layers is possible with a small workaround. First make sure that nothing but the objects that are to be moved is selected and marked in the layers palette. Select the desired hidden or locked layer. Go to Object > Arrange > Move to current layer (or use the context sensitive menu). Once you have record that as an action and added a shortcut to it, it should work for you in an acceptable way. For me it does.
Kurt Gold
Gary,
But I don't understand what you mean by window maximization being persistent.
Jeff is referring to the application, not the document window size. With most Windows applications -- including every other Adobe application I've used -- if you quit with your app window maximized, it will again be maximized when you restart it. Not Illustrator. I was hoping this would finally be fixed in version 11, but apparently it has not.
Yes, you can force Illustrator to start maximized by using a Windows shortcut (with properties set to run maximized), but some of us like to start IL by double-clicking on associated files in Explorer. I've worked around this problem with every version by using a batch file to start IL, but I shouldn't have to do that.
=-= Harron =-=
Jeff,
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you aware of the relationship between full layers and sublayers? When you click the triangle of a full layer, you are seeing the sublayers, which are contents within the full layer. Like files stored in a folder. Your sublayer is already in that full layer and if you wish it to be a sublayer within another full layer then just drag n drop it from the one into the other full layer, using Layers palette.
Bob
Brian,
I find the program opens to default of last setting, maximized or not on my CS Illustrator on XP. And it has followed this for past two or three versions that I can immediately recall.
Bob
I'm afraid that I can't say mine does that, Bob. You must have a special version of Illustrator :)
I'm sure that it was really, really important for the Illustrator team to add the Lensflare tool so marketing would have something to blather on about in the new features list, but fixing daily annoyances seems to be a very distinct second priority.
The best new featureset I could ever want to hear for a new Illustrator version is:
More stable, faster, annoyances and bugs fixed. :)
I have to wonder, in light of the fact that the marketing drones often force new features over bug fixing, what is the ratio of upgraders to brand new users? If it's overwhelmingly upgraders over new users, couldn't bug fixing be a huge, huge point for marketers?
I guess it just doesn't work that way.
I'm pretty sure I understand the relationship between parent layers and sublayers. For one thing, I always have the "show layers only" option enabled. So I don't see individual objects in the layers palette (there are way, way, way too many objects - often in the thousands - for that to be practical).
I just tried the "Object -> Arrange -> Send to current layer" command and it worked for sending an object from the parent to the sublayer. I didn't know that menu option existed. Still, that's far less convenient than moving an object between layers by dragging the selection indicator, which despite people telling me it should work, still does not. I don't know what the secret is.
What is the consensus here, anyway? Are most people able to move objects between parent and sublayers by dragging the selection indicator or not?
Jeffrey,
you just told the secret yourself. It's the show layers only option. As it seems to me that you fear stability problems when activating the preview of objects in the layer palette, my suggestion is to deactivate the show layers only option and take 12 pixels for the size of each layer palette line. Then you can drag and drop as you like. This should be a compromise. Otherwise you are forced to use the send to current layer command…
Kurt Gold
I would like to see that, this has been broken for quite some time
> I find the program opens to default of last setting, maximized or not on
my CS Illustrator on XP. And it has followed this for past two or three
versions that I can immediately recall.
OK, so dragging between parent/child layers works only if "show layers only" isn't enabled. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Unfortunately, that forces me only to revise my gripe rather than consider the problem solved:
You cannot move an object from a parent layer to a sublayer if the "show layers only" option is enabled.
Back to the originally stated purpose of my post, can anyone explain why Adobe has chosen for this not to function? Just an oversight? What about the things that have specifically been removed since version 8? Particularly, why shift + shortcut key no longer cycles through hidden tools. It's not like shift + shortcut key now does something else - they just threw the functionality away. Why?! (I know certain new tools are accessed by shift + shortcut key, but many old shift + shortcut keys now do nothing.)
Not only does AI not remember the last state of the window, but if you
set the shortcut to OPen Maximized that is ignored, too... this has been
going on for several versions now and is extremely annoying.
Hmm... Brian, I just tried the following on my system, running IL 10.0.3 on XP Pro:
1. Right-dragged a shortcut of Illustrator.exe from Explorer onto my desktop.
2. Set to run maximized in shortcut properties.
When I start IL with this shortcut, it does indeed start maximized on my system. If I then close and restart IL by double-clicking on Illustrator.exe, it opens in a normal (non-maximized) window... which is, of course, what drives me bonkers. But the shortcut thing seems to work on my setup, even though that's useless to me.
I just tried the same experiment with IL 8.0.1, which is also my system. Same results. (Boy... gotta love how fast version 8 starts up. Those were the days.)
It's not like shift + shortcut key now does something else - they just
threw away the functionality. Why?!
I would love to hear the answer to that one, Jeff. I can only guess that someone screwed up.
=-= Harron =-=
Jeff,
You don't have to first open all sublayers, especially if thousands, but if you click on the object and it's not a group, then note the full layer, open that layer, you'll see the proper sublayer is highlighted in the Layer palette. Now just grab that sublayer and drag n drop into either a new full layer or into any layer of your choice, including another sublayer (you'll get a subsublayer). When you have more layers/sublayers than the menu box will view at once, just drag to the top or bottom of the menu and the list will move until you get to the layer/sublayer you need (and have prepared for prior). That's doing it manually. Can't you do that?
Have you listed your wants and wishes into the Feature Request Topic and here? <http://www.adobe.com/support/feature.html>
Bob
Bob,
I understand what you're saying. (On a side note, you're calling both single objects and actual sublayers "layers"... I know that if you don't have "show layers only" enabled, they do in fact share the same level of hierarchy. But that's always seemed kind of annoying and potentially confusing; a layer is a container, an object is an object. I'm not saying I have a solution, but I wish there was some way that layers and objects were better differentiated in the layers palette. I for one don't really see much need for the objects themselves showing up in the layers palette, hence why I'm really glad that Adobe included a "show layers only" option. It is a layers palette after all, not an objects palette. But to each his own - I'll be satisfied as long as Adobe doesn't take away the "show layers only" option.)
I digress. Back to your suggestion. Yes, I could do that. But as I explained above, I don't like messing with tons of objects in my layers palette, especially when - as I noted with another gripe - all the layers (and objects) are expanded every time you open a file.
I thank you for your suggestions. I might employ them. But I'm still looking for a good reason why I can't just move selected non-grouped or -compounded object(s) on the artboard by dragging the selection indicator in the layers palette from a parent layer to a sublayer with the "show layers only" option enabled.
Jeff,
I guess because CorelDraw has had the ability to show layers and sublayers (objects) for some time prior to Illustrator, I got used to how it worked and learned to love it. It does make for a lot faster and easier layering once you get the hang of it. And it's truly not as complicated as it sounds or looks. Without the Layers Palette we would all be lost today, just think of sublayers as being a broadening of options. The difference is that you can also have subsublayers which makes the thought of a sublayer being an object a little difficult, but understand grandparent, parent, child concept makes that easier and understandibly more organized (less full layers). I do love sub/subsublayer abilities. For me, it's great.
Bob
Bob,
Now you lost me. You seem to be using the terms "sublayer" and "object" interchangeably. I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just not how I like to think about it. Maybe I confused you, too. I love sublayers. Sublayer meaning a container within another container (the parent layer), creating a hierarchy in the layers palette. I like them enough that I was willing to use AI 9 even though it was otherwise a pretty big piece of junk compared to AI 8. I just don't like mixing them with objects. Object meaning a singular entity from the artboard being displayed as an item on the layers palette, just as containers (layers/sublayers) are. I don't think they should be thought of as equals. Layers contain objects (though I don't like the objects to be shown). (Parent) layers can contain other (child/sub) layers as well (which I do like shown). Objects are, well, just objects and I don't find the need to have them represented in my layers palette (they literally represent themselves on the artboard already). I know which objects are on my layers; that's why I create layer hierarchies - to keep track of my objects without having to actually keep tabs on every single one individually. The way I organize, and again not that this is right or wrong, I do not need to see objects on my layers palette to know what's there. I already know. Therefore, I prefer that my layers palette show nothing but layers and sublayers (which is what the "show layers only" option does). It stays much organized (for me) that way.
-jeff
Harron and Bob, this is a repeat from 4 months ago but it's pertinent to the
min/max discussion:
Photoshop 7, Word XP, AutoCAD 2004, and TextPad 4 all function the same way,
which should be standard Windows behavior:
1. Open from shortcut set to Run Maximized - the programs open maximized
2. Open from shortcut set to Run Maximized after the programs have been
closed with small windows - the programs open maximized
3. Open from double click after set to Maximized - the programs open
maximized
4. Open from double click after the programs have been closed with small
windows - the programs open with small windows
This is how Illustrator CS operates:
1. Open from shortcut set to Run Maximized - the program opens
pseudo-maximized (not quite full screen)
2. Open from shortcut set to Run Maximized after the program has been closed
with small window - the program opens with small window
3. Open from double click after set to Maximized - the program opens almost
full screen but not maximized
4. Open from double click after the program has been closed with small
window - the program opens with small window
In the above for CS
1. is wrong and is new behavior in CS
2. is wrong because the shortcut setting is ignored, and is new behavior in
CS
3. is wrong but also existed with other versions of Illustrator
4. is correct behavior
...couldn't bug fixing be a huge, huge point for marketers?
I follow your logic, Jeff. But can you imagine an Adobe ad campaign for a new release where the theme is, "No new features, just bug fixes"?
=-= Harron =-=
Thanks for reposting that Derrick.
I don't have CS, but I agree with your assessment of what should be "standard windows behavior."
=-= Harron =-=
:) I think a lot of real users (of virtually any software product) would jump for joy over such an event. New features are horribly overrated compared to fixing existing features that don't work right. It is one of the biggest banes of the entire software industry.
The trick is, how do you get that through the thick heads in the marketing department? I'm not entirely sure that anyone outside those walls cares 1% as much as they do about major new features. They need to stop overestimating the gee-wizz factor of new version releases and give due process to fixing existing problems.
Are you listening, marketing drones?!
Amen. Where's my soapbox?
" I have to wonder, in light of the fact that the marketing drones often
force new features over bug fixing, what is the ratio of upgraders to
brand new users? If it's overwhelmingly upgraders over new users, couldn't
bug fixing be a huge, huge point for marketers?"
Corporate public relations rule #1: Only admit to mistakes in engineering or production when the bean counters have shown hard copy spreadsheet evidence indicating that sales are down specifically beacause those mistakes were made. Simple Cost/Benefit analysis. Or, if crews from "60 Minutes" and "Nightline" are banging on your door, and Ralph Nader is standing there leading the charge in full kevlar body armor with an unsheathed katana raised on high, that's when all those Master's-level back-pedalling courses at Wharton start paying off.
"I guess it just doesn't work that way."
Subsection A, to Rule #1: Do everything possible prevent present and potential customers from knowing about Rule #1.
;)
Well heck, they don't have to broadcast that they fixed bugs... but I guess the problem is that fixing bugs takes away from the time engineers could use to add new, unneeded features! Yay!
On the other hand, I have to wonder how much time it really (should) take to fix minor bugs. It doesn't seem like it should be a big deal at all. But then, I'm not a programmer so I can't really vouch for that. I know tracking bugs in the code can be very time consuming. Still, it's infuriating that they place such a huge premium on what can be positively spun by the marketing department over what really needs to be fixed... the engineers I imagine are at least as annoyed about it as the customers. And they're not allowed to publicly vent their frustration and shared annoyance, lest they be strung up by their toes by the marketing goons.
My historical view of the evolution of Illustrator is that things have improved over the years but also the trend seems to be to add bells and whistles and "dumb down" the program for mom and pop users. That may be a bit harsh because illustrator IS hard to learn initially. (have used since illustrator 88)
OK here is a question:
Why is the new CS displaying poorly on my mac? I get white lines around objects like type and sometimes a weird "JAG" in a shape that is at an angle.
This persists until I resize move the image. If I turn off anti-alias it goes away but type looks bad. OSX panther, G5. Anyone?
BTW, I never really understood the whole each object having it's own layer thing. Seems like overkill.