AUS BICYCLE 2 RE RIDE MELBOURNE S CITYLINK TUNNEL WITH CRITICAL MASS
From: forSALTsythm@no-spam (Mark(desalinate for e-mail)Forsyth)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:38:14 +1000


On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:01:34 GMT, ghostwombat <poorlittlemarky@no-spam> gushed forth:


[deletia]

>all the time... when are you going to start campaigning against that, Marky?

I may even have been bothered to read the remainder if you hadn't said that.

Childish name-calling gets you nowhere. Bye bye.

[probable crap deleted]

-- Ooroo Mark F...

Another Optus Cable Traffic Monitor.
http://www.members.optushome.com.au/forsythm/traff/

Today is Boomtime, the 31st day of Confusion in the YOLD 3169






From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 26 Jun 2003 08:18:43 GMT

In article <slrnbfku84.6o.forSALTsythm@no-spam>,
Mark(desalinate for e-mail)Forsyth wrote:
> For some motorists, and others, for 90 minutes once a month the streets > become a source of frustration and anger. Frustration and anger that > could well be taken out on YOU - think about it.

What difference does it make? Motorists are arseholes to start with,
either way they'll still be arseholes in the end.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "Ben" (ihate@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:00:34 GMT

Both participate in other sports on weekly basis as well as during school time, they don't own a TV game of any kind either.

"RMan" <rdj1969@no-spam> wrote in message news:bdd7ua$ope$1@no-spam >
> "Ben" <ihate@no-spam> wrote in message > news:XvgKa.971$9g2.9737@no-spam > >[snip]
>
>
> My brother has two sons, i can tell you they > > will never have bikes of their own, you can thank critical mass for > > that!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
>
> And not thank Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc ?
>
>


From: Smee (Smee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:02:10 +1000

Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.

PC wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:48:58 GMT, jarkko@no-spam (Jarkko Altonen)
> wrote:
> > >Well said. I've been arguing a similar position for years > > And yet Critical Mass is still active in hundreds of cities > worldwide.. Is it really worth your effort?
> > PC
-- Look beyond the window, don't just focus on your own reflection.
abuse@no-spam for all spam.


From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:07:02 +1000

jeremy said >As a motorist (though I don't personally own a car), I find that all >other motorists piss me off.... as a cyclist I find that mostorists piss >me off.... as a pedestrian I find that motorists piss me off.... I wish >they'd go away!
and >What difference does it make? Motorists are arseholes to start with,
>either way they'll still be arseholes in the end.
so l guess that makes him an asshole must be a bitch riding up to the snow with all your gear on the back of your bike

From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:55:28 GMT

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:02:37 GMT, "Ben" <ihate@no-spam> wrote:

>So why isn't crital mass organised out of peak hour traffic???????????

Because it is essentially a group of riders on their way home from work..

Besides, it's 6pm on a Friday - show me any peak hour traffic metrics that say 6pm on a Friday is the height of peak.. Just about anybody who has a bit of flexibility in their working hours (who are probably those who have the kind of high income jobs that involve driving their pollution generators to and around the CBD at 6pm) leaves a little early on Fridays, so the traffic in and immediately around the CBD at 6pm should be quite low by most standards..

If it was 5.05pm on a Monday, well, it'd be a different matter entirely..

Anyway, since when did the right of non-car operators to use the road diminish when there are more cars on the road?
If anything, it should increase to counter unsustainable transport practices.. Just like tram clearways should not exist to aid peak hour traffic (which should instead be metered with aggressive traffic light sequences to prevent too many cars from entering narrow sections of road during peak hour).. Dramatically increase the amount of time that traffic off Victoria Parade gets a red light to get across Hoddle Street and you've fixed the problems with Route 109 around Victoria Street, ditto Victoria and Burnley Streets westbound in the morning peak, Moonee Ponds Junction and Mount Alexander Road southbound in the morning peak, Flemington Road at Racecourse Road in the afternoon peak.. All these people should be taking the public transport services or the nearby freeways (Eastern Fwy for Victoria St, Tulla Freeway for Moonee Ponds Junction etc) provided, not clogging up city streets, and the sooner our transport bureaucracy stops giving the car priveliged status on the road, the better..

PC

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 26 Jun 2003 12:13:44 GMT

In article <3efac5c7$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>What difference does it make? Motorists are arseholes to start with,
>>either way they'll still be arseholes in the end.
> so l guess that makes him an asshole > must be a bitch riding up to the snow with all your gear on the back of your > bike
Not really, I seldom drive, though when I do, I don't find that I'm treated any better than I am as a cyclist, it's just that I'm more their size! That and there's quite a difference in driving to the snow and driving in peak hour traffic.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 26 Jun 2003 12:15:26 GMT

In article <3EFAC4A2.893B03FE@no-spam>, Smee wrote:
> Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately > congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.

Troll....

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:21:18 +1000

>In the first case I specifically meant when I am driving. No that I am >a motorist. As I do not own a car and I very rarely drive, I don't >consider myself a motorist in a general sense so a motorist is someone who uses there car for something as worthless as getting to work, but if someone is using it for something important like getting to the snow then you aren't a motorist?

>Well first, I haven't heard of any CM going up Hume Hwy. Second of all >there aren't all that many alternatives for going to the snow (short of >catching a coach up the mountain). Most people who contribute to peak >hour traffic are commuters who are making urban based trips that could >be done by public transport or cycling.
well you could ride your bike for a start? what not practical? would it be inconvenient?well then don't go. guess you have worked out by now why people drive there car

From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:40:34 GMT

On 26 Jun 2003 12:15:26 GMT, Jeremy Lunn <spammers-must-die@no-spam> wrote:

>> Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately >> congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.
>
>Troll....

And one who, if s/he carried out said troll would be caught on at least five different sets of cameras, be arrested by the police escort on the spot, and would probably get 20 to life in the process.. Yeah,
tive minutes wait on CM day and 30 seconds on other days is really worth all that..

PC

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:06:57 +1000

>You're missing the point.
nope l think you missed mine > Travelling to work "may not" be worthless,
may not? so it could be worthless?
>but unless you work out in the suburbs, there is usually no reason why you'd >need to drive. Particularly those who work in the CBD who would most be >affected by CM.
just like the is no reason you'd need to drive to the snow.
do you really think most people would drive if it was more convenient to take public transport? yes some would but not many l am sorry but l just cant see how you think the car is the root of all evil between 6am-7pm mon-fri, but then reserve the right to drive one on the weekends?


From: "RMan" (rdj1969@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:45:08 +1000

Can you really blame CM, a once a month hippy movement full of socialists for these kids having bikes ?

Your Bro needs to reassess his philosophies
Sure, don't buy your kids bikes, 'cos of the danger/risk, 'cos you don't want them too fat from home etc etc, but to blame CM is a pile of poop.

"Dad, can I please have a bike ?"

"No son, CM has put an end to that..........."

"Ben" <ihate@no-spam> wrote in message news:6vzKa.652$Py2.7287@no-spam > Both participate in other sports on weekly basis as well as during school > time, they don't own a TV game of any kind either.
>
>
>
>
> "RMan" <rdj1969@no-spam> wrote in message > news:bdd7ua$ope$1@no-spam > >
> > "Ben" <ihate@no-spam> wrote in message > > news:XvgKa.971$9g2.9737@no-spam > > >[snip]
> >
> >
> > My brother has two sons, i can tell you they > > > will never have bikes of their own, you can thank critical mass for > > > that!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > And not thank Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc ?
> >
> >
>
>


From: "RMan" (rdj1969@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:46:08 +1000

I was wandering when someone would cross to aus.cars
Smee, you're a moron
"Smee" <Smee@no-spam> wrote in message news:3EFAC4A2.893B03FE@no-spam > Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately > congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.


From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 01:29:35 GMT

In article <3efb7c90$0$26637$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
> just like the is no reason you'd need to drive to the snow.
> do you really think most people would drive if it was more convenient to > take public transport? yes some would but not many > l am sorry but l just cant see how you think the car is the root of all evil > between 6am-7pm mon-fri, but then reserve the right to drive one on the > weekends?

I don't. It's the root of all evil anytime but there's a difference.
Commuting for most people is an urban trip, while going to the snow is a rural trip. If it's about choice then I don't blame anyone for driving if they have no other alternative. Perhaps that's why some motorists are supportive of CM, because they have no other choice.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:59:41 +1000

>I don't. It's the root of all evil anytime but there's a difference.
>Commuting for most people is an urban trip, while going to the snow is a >rural trip.
so its ok to use "the root of all evil" as long as you think its more convenient? l am pretty sure you could catch a bus from Melbourne to the snow, so why drive?
why doesn't CM hold up the traffic on the way to the snow on the weekends?
if fact maybe they should stop it all together, l mean no one "needs" to go skiing, so lets ban going to the snow, think of the fuel we would save then.(apart of course from the people that ride there bikes there, as an added bonus they would have the slopes to yourself)
>If it's about choice then I don't blame anyone for driving >if they have no other alternative.
people have a choice, they choose to drive. (allot of them drive to the train station, so does that make them 1/2 assholes?) just like you choose to drive to the snow >Perhaps that's why some motorists >are supportive of CM, because they have no other choice.
"some" care to have a guess at the %?
most people l have spoken to don't even know what you are doing, so l don't see how they can be supportive

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 03:36:44 GMT

In article <3efba50f$0$26638$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
> so its ok to use "the root of all evil" as long as you think its more > convenient? l am pretty sure you could catch a bus from Melbourne to the > snow, so why drive?

Hmmm last I checked, the only way to get up the mountain having caught a V/Line coach to bright was to hitch hike. There are organised tours where you can catch a bus to the mountain but I don't know that there's any shuttle service as such.

> why doesn't CM hold up the traffic on the way to the snow on the weekends?
> if fact maybe they should stop it all together, l mean no one "needs" to go > skiing, so lets ban going to the snow, think of the fuel we would save > then.(apart of course from the people that ride there bikes there, as an > added bonus they would have the slopes to yourself)

Except for the fact that you also loose out on the recreational value and the fact that some people do need a holiday.

> people have a choice, they choose to drive. (allot of them drive to the > train station, so does that make them 1/2 assholes?) just like you choose to > drive to the snow
Actually I've never driven to the snow. Last time I went to the snow was when I was 15 and I went on a bus with school.

>>Perhaps that's why some motorists >>are supportive of CM, because they have no other choice.
> "some" care to have a guess at the %?
> most people l have spoken to don't even know what you are doing, so l don't > see how they can be supportive
What I'm doing? I've never been to a CM.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:59:57 +1000

jeremy said >Actually I've never driven to the snow. Last time I went to the snow >was when I was 15 and I went on a bus with school.
but he also said >Not really. In most cases I don't go the snow because of the sheer cost >of lift tickets, ski hire and accomodation. If I do go then we'd >usually share a car with at least 2-3 passengers (plus the driver).
so which is it?

>Except for the fact that you also loose out on the recreational value >and the fact that some people do need a holiday.
so its ok to ride in "the root of all evil" as long as you are doing it for recreation, but not ok when you use it to get to work? hmmm still having a little trouble with this >and the fact that some people do need a holiday You could say home. the fact that you choose to go somewhere is up to you.
The fact that you choose not to ride your bike there, is also up to you.
You seem to want it both ways. You want to drive when and where you choose.
Then say "cars are the root of all evil" and that we shouldn't be driving them.

>What I'm doing? I've never been to a CM.
didn't understand this part sorry

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 04:54:40 GMT

In article <3efbc13e$0$26637$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
> jeremy said >>Actually I've never driven to the snow. Last time I went to the snow >>was when I was 15 and I went on a bus with school.
> but he also said >>Not really. In most cases I don't go the snow because of the sheer cost >>of lift tickets, ski hire and accomodation. If I do go then we'd >>usually share a car with at least 2-3 passengers (plus the driver).
> so which is it?

Ahh well it I was really just being hypthetical, though if it makes you happy we did used to go up there with the whole family, six of us in the one car. That was well over 10 years ago. Have thought about going up recently while sharing a car but not for the moment.

>>Except for the fact that you also loose out on the recreational value >>and the fact that some people do need a holiday.
> so its ok to ride in "the root of all evil" as long as you are doing it for > recreation, but not ok when you use it to get to work? hmmm > still having a little trouble with this
No, the difference is that one type of trip is rural and the other is urban. Cars aren't a good form of urban transport.
>>and the fact that some people do need a holiday > You could say home. the fact that you choose to go somewhere is up to you.

Stay home and be depressed?

> The fact that you choose not to ride your bike there, is also up to you.
> You seem to want it both ways. You want to drive when and where you choose.
> Then say "cars are the root of all evil" and that we shouldn't be driving > them.

Probably more to the point that the occasional car trip to the snow is harmless and contributes bugger all to urban road traffic, etc. It's those who commute by car everyday and make every trip by car that contribute to all the traffic jams and pollution.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:26:45 +1000

>Ahh well it I was really just being hypthetical, though if it makes you >happy we did used to go up there with the whole family, six of us in the >one car. That was well over 10 years ago. Have thought about going up >recently while sharing a car but not for the moment.
well l am glad we cleared that up just so long as you know there is a very fine line between hypothetical and BS
>No, the difference is that one type of trip is rural and the other is >urban.
so pollution is ok, just as long as we are careful to spread it all over the country and not just in the cities?

>Cars aren't a good form of urban transport in your opinion. which is fine, you can think what you want, but most people disagree with you.

>Stay home and be depressed?
no you could go for a ride on your bike
>>> It's the root of all evil anytime(jeremy)
>Probably more to the point that the occasional car trip to the snow is >harmless and contributes bugger all to urban road traffic, etc. It's >those who commute by car everyday and make every trip by car that >contribute to all the traffic jams and pollution.
just as you choose to drive when and where you please, others have the same choice

From: Zebee Johnstone (zebee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 07:08:02 GMT

In aus.bicycle on 27 Jun 2003 06:45:05 GMT Jeremy Lunn <spammers-must-die@no-spam> wrote:
> > I doubt there'd be many who'd prefer to drive through peak hour traffic > for 20-30min as opposed to spending the same time on public transport.
>
Drive no. Ride my motorcycle? yes.

And a crowded bus is a *lot* less fun than your own airconditioned car playing the music you like, when both are crawking at the same speed.
Don't underestimate that.

Public transport to work costs me (the cheapest version) about $10, the bike is about $8-$10 depending on petrol prices and tyre costs. Bike takes about 50 minutes, PT about 90, car would take a lot closer to the bike than the PT as I almost never lanesplit.

When there is a traffic problem, like the jackknifed semi a week or two back, the buses were stuck with the cars, I lanesplit for a couple of km, then headed on my way.

When talking private transport, don't overlook the motorcycle!

Zebee

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:15:17 +1000

>Not really but there's not much you can do about rural pollution in a >lot of cases (though rail should be used a lot more than it is).
that goes pretty much the same for the city the rail system for the most part doesn't work for the same reason public transport doesn't work(for most people). In most cases it doesn't take people/product from where they/it are to where they/it needs to be.

>I doubt there'd be many who'd prefer to drive through peak hour traffic >for 20-30min as opposed to spending the same time on public transport.
but "the same time" doesn't get them home(well ok there are a few people that can get home as fast or faster on public transport, they are easy to pick, they're the ones already using it) and if you think you can come up with a public transport system that gets people from there front door to the front door of there work then go for it and best of luck people don't drive there cars to work just to waste money and time, if it was faster/cheaper and as convenient to go by public transport they would,
but it isn't and in most cases it never will be.

>>>Stay home and be depressed?
>> no you could go for a ride on your bike >Sure, but sometimes I'd rather ride my bike elswhere than where I live.
well you could always ride there instead and leave that evil motor car behind
>> just as you choose to drive when and where you please, others have the same >> choice >Actually I'd rather take public transport or ride my bike yes that's my point you choose when and where you ride your bike you choose when and where you will drive(someone else's car)
so others have the right to the same choices

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 07:50:31 GMT

In article <3efbef05$0$26633$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>Not really but there's not much you can do about rural pollution in a >>lot of cases (though rail should be used a lot more than it is).
> that goes pretty much the same for the city > the rail system for the most part doesn't work for the same reason public > transport doesn't work(for most people). In most cases it doesn't take > people/product from where they/it are to where they/it needs to be.

But for most travelling to/from the city it takes them pretty damn close. In most cases improved bus services out in the suburbs will do.

>>I doubt there'd be many who'd prefer to drive through peak hour traffic >>for 20-30min as opposed to spending the same time on public transport.
> but "the same time" doesn't get them home(well ok there are a few people > that can get home as fast or faster on public transport, they are easy to > pick, they're the ones already using it)
In most cases from the city it is quicker. Either way, try putting 600
people on the road in their own cars or 600 on a train and see which of them moves faster.

> and if you think you can come up > with a public transport system that gets people from there front door to the > front door of there work then go for it and best of luck > people don't drive there cars to work just to waste money and time, if it > was faster/cheaper and as convenient to go by public transport they would,
> but it isn't and in most cases it never will be.

I'm sure I could but there's not much point unless the government implements it. Just take a look at "It's Time To Move" published by the Public Transport Users Assocaition.

>>> no you could go for a ride on your bike >>Sure, but sometimes I'd rather ride my bike elswhere than where I live.
> well you could always ride there instead and leave that evil motor car > behind
I generally take the train with my bike. Otherwise I fly and I don't fancy leaving a car at the airport for a week or so.

>>Actually I'd rather take public transport or ride my bike > yes that's my point > you choose when and where you ride your bike
So I should be able to.....

> you choose when and where you will drive(someone else's car)
> so others have the right to the same choices
Not really, can only drive it when it's available. I don't particularly mind if other people can drive though we need to dramatically reduce the number of vehicles on our roads.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:27:26 +1000

>But for most travelling to/from the city it takes them pretty damn >close. In most cases improved bus services out in the suburbs will do.
but close doesn't cut it try telling your boss "l came pretty damn close to making it to work today its the little trip at the start and the end that kills public transport
>In most cases from the city it is quicker.
>> people don't drive there cars to work just to waste money and time, if it >> was faster/cheaper and as convenient to go by public transport they would,
>> but it isn't and in most cases it never will be.
maybe you missed this in my last post
>Either way, try putting 600
>people on the road in their own cars or 600 on a train and see which of >them moves faster.
try getting 1200 people to start at work and find there way home, 600 by public transport and 600 by car, guess who will be home first
>I'm sure I could but there's not much point unless the government >implements it. Just take a look at "It's Time To Move" published by the >Public Transport Users Assocaition.
maybe l will but not today what's the cost???

>I generally take the train with my bike. Otherwise I fly and I don't >fancy leaving a car at the airport for a week or so.
oh so pollution doesn't count if it comes out of a plane?

>>>Actually I'd rather take public transport or ride my bike >> yes that's my point >> you choose when and where you ride your bike >
>So I should be able to.....
>
>> you choose when and where you will drive(someone else's car)
>> so others have the right to the same choices >
>Not really, can only drive it when it's available. I don't particularly >mind if other people can drive though we need to dramatically reduce the >number of vehicles on our roads.

so is your point that you cant drive when and where you like(coz you don't have a car, "yet"), so you should be able to tell other people when and where to drive?
you make your choices and let other people make theirs improve the public transport if you like but l don't understand how what CM is doing is going to improve anything but they will be out there making there new friends in 6 minutes so best of luck
>we need to dramatically reduce the number of vehicles on our roads.
why?

enough it will be over in 90 minutes for another month

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 09:29:22 GMT

In article <3efbffee$0$26639$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>But for most travelling to/from the city it takes them pretty damn >>close. In most cases improved bus services out in the suburbs will do.
> but close doesn't cut it > try telling your boss "l came pretty damn close to making it to work today > its the little trip at the start and the end that kills public transport
Well it'd take them all the way if bus services were better.
>>Either way, try putting 600
>>people on the road in their own cars or 600 on a train and see which of >>them moves faster.
> try getting 1200 people to start at work and find there way home, 600 by > public transport and 600 by car, guess who will be home first
Those who took the train because they won't be sitting in traffic congestions.

>>I'm sure I could but there's not much point unless the government >>implements it. Just take a look at "It's Time To Move" published by the >>Public Transport Users Assocaition.
> maybe l will but not today > what's the cost???

Free from your public library or $15 to non-members:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ptua/publications.htm
>>I generally take the train with my bike. Otherwise I fly and I don't >>fancy leaving a car at the airport for a week or so.
> oh so pollution doesn't count if it comes out of a plane?

Well it's more or less a form of mass transit.

> so is your point that you cant drive when and where you like(coz you don't > have a car, "yet"), so you should be able to tell other people when and > where to drive?

No.

> >we need to dramatically reduce the number of vehicles on our roads.
> why?

Too much congestion.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:34:29 +1000

>but l don't understand how what CM is doing is going to improve anything

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 10:48:29 GMT

In article <3efc1bd4$0$26638$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>Well it'd take them all the way if bus services were better.
> show me a bus service that goes door to door(yes there are a few)

Don't want that... nothing wrong with one or two changes are long as you don't have to wait more than a few minutes.

>>Those who took the train because they won't be sitting in traffic >>congestions.
> nope l wouldn't think so , unless you are just talking about when CM is out > and about. why do you think people drive??

Nope, where I live it can take an hour to drive to the otherside of the suburb and back again in peak hour. That's because there's so many damn cars on the road. While at the same time it takes 15 minutes to get a train into the city.

>>Free from your public library or $15 to non-members:
>>http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ptua/publications.htm > l meant the cost to implemant the plan
Read it and see....

>>Well it's more or less a form of mass transit.
> you could take the train? what to slow?

Across the other side of town? no.

> to expensive?

If we're talking about Sydney....

> now you know why other > people don't use it much
Sure I do, but not inner city commuters.

>>Too much congestion.
> but of course if you were to remove all the congestion everyone would start > to drive, oh but wait then...........

Reduce road capacity.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: Smee (Smee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:02:36 +1000

Oh I'm mortally wounded BTW I didn't cross this to aus.cars Hope you had fun disrupting peak hour traffic for a protest you guys didn't even know what it was about.
your idiot spokesman couldn't even give a straight answer in a radio interview.

RMan wrote:
> > I was wandering when someone would cross to aus.cars > > Smee, you're a moron > > "Smee" <Smee@no-spam> wrote in message > news:3EFAC4A2.893B03FE@no-spam > > Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately > > congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.

-- Look beyond the window, don't just focus on your own reflection.
abuse@no-spam for all spam.


From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:13:45 +1000

>Don't want that... nothing wrong with one or two changes are long as you >don't have to wait more than a few minutes.
l am talking about the walk from your home to the bus stop and from your final bus stop to where you want to be
>Nope, where I live it can take an hour to drive to the otherside of the >suburb and back again in peak hour. That's because there's so many damn >cars on the road. While at the same time it takes 15 minutes to get a >train into the city.
ok so make your choice and take the train
>Read it and see....
nope coz like you said its very unlikely to happen. but my first guess is coz it would coat so damn much
>>>Well it's more or less a form of mass transit.
>> you could take the train? what to slow?
>Across the other side of town? no.
>> to expensive?
>If we're talking about Sydney....
>> now you know why other >> people don't use it much >Sure I do, but not inner city commuters.
l was talking about instead of flying
>Reduce road capacity.
and the point of that would be?
wouldn't that just lead us back to congestion?
l mean if you half the number of cars and then half the road capacity,
what's the point?


From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:14:57 +1000

>but l don't understand how what CM is doing is going to improve anything damn l forgot again you still didn't answer this one

From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:17:10 GMT

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:02:36 +1000, Smee <Smee@no-spam> wrote:

>Hope you had fun disrupting peak hour traffic for a protest you guys
We did.. That was the fastest I've ever been on a pushbike btw, I hit 72 near the bottom of the tunnel after holding back to shoot some video footage of the folks in front of me :-)

>didn't even know what it was about.
>your idiot spokesman couldn't even give a straight answer in a radio interview.


Critical Mass is not an organization and does not have spokesmen..
It's basically a coincidental gathering of like minded people who go wherever they feel like, which usually involves one of up to a few xeroxed maps that get handed out at the start of the ride..

>> I was wandering when someone would cross to aus.cars
*snipped from send list*

PC

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:39:02 +1000

>That was the fastest I've ever been on a pushbike btw, I hit >72 near the bottom of the tunnel well its good to hear that something as achieved the only PR l have seen was all bad people not getting into the footy on time,
bicycle victoria saying"they have nothing to do with us and we hope people don't hate us because of there actions"
reporter saying "we really have no idea what the protest is about, but they have a nice web site"


From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 12:29:56 GMT

In article <3efc26e8$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>Don't want that... nothing wrong with one or two changes are long as you >>don't have to wait more than a few minutes.
> l am talking about the walk from your home to the bus stop and from your > final bus stop to where you want to be
It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.

>>Read it and see....
> nope coz like you said its very unlikely to happen. but my first guess is > coz it would coat so damn much
It's got to happen sometime.

>>Reduce road capacity.
> and the point of that would be?
> wouldn't that just lead us back to congestion?
> l mean if you half the number of cars and then half the road capacity,
> what's the point?

Oh well, less pollution, less road trauma, less pedestrian hostile.....

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: A bit more than (tipsy@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:55:41 +1000

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:44:34 GMT, David Sutton <critical@no-spam> wrote:
> does not block traffic -- We ARE traffic. We are not trying to annoy > motorists, but simply to show car-bound commuters that there is a better > alternative to their metal cocoons. Be open to new ideas!
Have you been told today?


From: "The Raven" (wsmc@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:01:54 +1000

"A bit more than" <tipsy@no-spam> wrote in message news:5ifofv4hibgr6o1k5kt2mp6a40k46crkv8@no-spam > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:44:34 GMT, David Sutton <critical@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > does not block traffic -- We ARE traffic. We are not trying to annoy > > motorists, but simply to show car-bound commuters that there is a better > > alternative to their metal cocoons. Be open to new ideas!
>
> Have you been told today?

If they think it's a better way, pay like the rest of us or get out of the fscking way.

Should've run over them all as far as this stupid ill-informed protest goes.

-- The Raven http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's ** since August 15th 2000.


From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:02:01 +1000

You're a gem Jeremy.... I gather you are also pissed off by other cyclists,
and walkers, and dogs, cats, people, etc???

"Jeremy Lunn" <spammers-must-die@no-spam> wrote in message news:slrnbfjb3u.1av.spammers-must-die@no-spam > In article <9HhKa.7783$eE.77753@no-spam>, Andrew Morris wrote:
> > I've been to a CM ride, so I can offer an educated opinion, and you guys are > > pains in the ass.... As a motorist, you piss me off, and as a cyclist,
you > > distress me, as you have ALL cyclists tarred with the same brush as being > > fuckwits, who enjoy pissing off motorists...
>
> As a motorist (though I don't personally own a car), I find that all > other motorists piss me off.... as a cyclist I find that mostorists piss > me off.... as a pedestrian I find that motorists piss me off.... I wish > they'd go away!
>
> -- > Jeremy Lunn > Melbourne, Australia > Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
> http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.


From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:03:04 +1000

If you can ride through either tunnel in 5 minutes, you're wasting your time with Critical Mass... Much better off competing in the Tour de France....

"PC" <get@no-spam> wrote in message news:3efaf783.98151674@no-spam > On 26 Jun 2003 12:15:26 GMT, Jeremy Lunn > <spammers-must-die@no-spam> wrote:
>
> >> Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately > >> congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.
> >
> >Troll....
>
> And one who, if s/he carried out said troll would be caught on at > least five different sets of cameras, be arrested by the police escort > on the spot, and would probably get 20 to life in the process.. Yeah,
> tive minutes wait on CM day and 30 seconds on other days is really > worth all that..
>
>
> PC >


From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:05:56 +1000

<snip>

> We did.. That was the fastest I've ever been on a pushbike btw, I hit > 72 near the bottom of the tunnel after holding back to shoot some > video footage of the folks in front of me :-)

if 72 is as fast as you've ever been on a push bike, you need to ride a bit more often, or stop relying on gravity....

> >didn't even know what it was about.
> >your idiot spokesman couldn't even give a straight answer in a radio interview.
>
> Critical Mass is not an organization and does not have spokesmen..
> It's basically a coincidental gathering of like minded people who go > wherever they feel like, which usually involves one of up to a few > xeroxed maps that get handed out at the start of the ride..

Yeah, you're right... They're not a "regular" organisation... they're a bloody terrorist organisation....

Assholes who give ALL cyclists a bad name....


From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:09:24 +1000

Hey Stu, ever seen a hippy in the snow??? They'd be polluting the environment by using equipment driven on occasion by a diesel generator....

"stu" <st@no-spam> wrote in message news:3efac5c7$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam > jeremy said > >As a motorist (though I don't personally own a car), I find that all > >other motorists piss me off.... as a cyclist I find that mostorists piss > >me off.... as a pedestrian I find that motorists piss me off.... I wish > >they'd go away!
> and > >What difference does it make? Motorists are arseholes to start with,
> >either way they'll still be arseholes in the end.
> so l guess that makes him an asshole > must be a bitch riding up to the snow with all your gear on the back of your > bike >
>


From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 14:13:32 GMT

In article <S7YKa.7917$eE.83138@no-spam>, Andrew Morris wrote:
> You're a gem Jeremy.... I gather you are also pissed off by other cyclists,
> and walkers, and dogs, cats, people, etc???

Other cyclists? Generally not... Walkers? Depends where they are and what they're doing (e.g. every cyclists gets pissed off with groups who take up the whole width of the bike path). Dogs? Depends if they're under control and where they are. Cats? They shouldn't be outdoors.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:25:18 +1000

Actually, no, I retract that comment.... I just looked at Jeremy's web page (yep, I'm bored).... Jeremy's mum probably wont let him borrow the car,
hence he rides his bike everywhere, or gets PT when his mum wont drive him....

Come back to commenting on issues such as this when you've got some more real world experience Jeremy...

You've argued about all manner of issues stemming from the Critical Mass debate, yet you admit you've never ridden in one.

Clearly, you've no real idea as to what you're talking about...

Welcome to my ignore list...

Cheers,

Andrew
"Andrew Morris" <use.the.newsgroup@no-spam> wrote in message news:NeYKa.7921$eE.83058@no-spam > Hey Stu, ever seen a hippy in the snow??? They'd be polluting the > environment by using equipment driven on occasion by a diesel generator....
>
> "stu" <st@no-spam> wrote in message > news:3efac5c7$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam > > jeremy said > > >As a motorist (though I don't personally own a car), I find that all > > >other motorists piss me off.... as a cyclist I find that mostorists piss > > >me off.... as a pedestrian I find that motorists piss me off.... I wish > > >they'd go away!
> > and > > >What difference does it make? Motorists are arseholes to start with,
> > >either way they'll still be arseholes in the end.
> > so l guess that makes him an asshole > > must be a bitch riding up to the snow with all your gear on the back of > your > > bike > >
> >
>
>


From: "Andrew Morris" (use.the.newsgroup@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:28:26 +1000

"Jeremy Lunn" <spammers-must-die@no-spam> wrote in message news:slrnbfok8c.1pe.spammers-must-die@no-spam > In article <S7YKa.7917$eE.83138@no-spam>, Andrew Morris wrote:
> > You're a gem Jeremy.... I gather you are also pissed off by other cyclists,
> > and walkers, and dogs, cats, people, etc???
>
> Other cyclists? Generally not... Walkers? Depends where they are and > what they're doing (e.g. every cyclists gets pissed off with groups who > take up the whole width of the bike path)

Crap... Most bikepaths are shared these days... If you dont like it, be a grown up, and ride on the road...

>. Dogs? Depends if they're under control and where they are. Cats?
They shouldn't be outdoors.
>
> -- > Jeremy Lunn > Melbourne, Australia > Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
> http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.


From: "Marvin The Paranoid Android" (nospaamforme@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:49:52 +1000

"Smee" <Smee@no-spam> wrote in message news:3EFAC4A2.893B03FE@no-spam > Nothing like ploughing through a pack of wankers on cycles deliberately > congesting the tunnels when they PAY NO REGISTRATION.
Snip
And no City Link Toll????


From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 27 Jun 2003 14:53:40 GMT

In article <HtYKa.7922$eE.83178@no-spam>, Andrew Morris wrote:
> Actually, no, I retract that comment.... I just looked at Jeremy's web page
And the relevance that has to anything?

> (yep, I'm bored).... Jeremy's mum probably wont let him borrow the car,
> hence he rides his bike everywhere, or gets PT when his mum wont drive > him....

I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want (except for commuting).
I could buy a car but I've got beter things to spend my money on.

> Come back to commenting on issues such as this when you've got some more > real world experience Jeremy...

Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere.

> You've argued about all manner of issues stemming from the Critical Mass > debate, yet you admit you've never ridden in one.

Irrelevant.

> Clearly, you've no real idea as to what you're talking about...

Wrong.

> Welcome to my ignore list...

Doesn't worry me.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:39:41 +1000

jeremy said >Not really, can only drive it when it's available. I don't particularly >mind if other people can drive though we need to dramatically reduce the >number of vehicles on our roads.
but he then said >I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want (except for commuting).
you really have to make up your mind
>AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine.
but wait you haven't been to the snow since you were 15 and surely you couldn't have been to them all?
shit they even use electricity to make snow!!!! now there is a good use for oil/cool
>>>Don't want that... nothing wrong with one or two changes are long as you >>>don't have to wait more than a few minutes.
>> l am talking about the walk from your home to the bus stop and from your >> final bus stop to where you want to be >
>It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.
now that's just BS, why do you think they drive???????????
why would someone put up with peak hour and take an hour to get home if they could be home in 45 minutes by public transport?

>> nope coz like you said its very unlikely to happen. but my first guess is >> coz it would coat so damn much >It's got to happen sometime why?

>Oh well, less pollution,
nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later >less road trauma maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak hour(but l could be wrong)
>less pedestrian hostile.....
what's this?(BTW there aren't any pedestrians in the tunnel to be saved by CM)

>Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get >anywhere by car in peak hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or >not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere if that were true then where did all the cars go??
l will say it again, people do not drive there cars to piss you off they drive because its faster/cheaper/convenient/comfortable have to go shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone, how long do you think that would take by PT?


From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:04:28 GMT

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:05:56 +1000, "Andrew Morris"
<use.the.newsgroup@no-spam> wrote:

>> Critical Mass is not an organization and does not have spokesmen..
>> It's basically a coincidental gathering of like minded people who go >> wherever they feel like, which usually involves one of up to a few >> xeroxed maps that get handed out at the start of the ride..
>
>Yeah, you're right... They're not a "regular" organisation... they're a >bloody terrorist organisation....

Did you keep your fridge magnet? Perhaps it's time you started ranting to the phone operators on the terrorism hotline.. :-)

PC

Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
From: ghostwombat (cmrocks@no-spam)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:08:08 GMT

>> It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.
> now that's just BS, why do you think they drive???????????
> why would someone put up with peak hour and take an hour to get home if they > could be home in 45 minutes by public transport?

Because they're selfish. They want their own "space" in a community of one person, despite the fact that being sequestered in a mobile steel cage has a measurable impact on disconnectedness from your feloow human beings. This selfishness is the same reason that people buy 4WD's for *their* familiy,
with no regard to the fact that they are demonstrably 20 times more unsafe for other road users when crashes occur. (Yes, there is survey research to back this claim up).

>> less road trauma > maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak > hour(but l could be wrong)

Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is overwhelmingly skewed between the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.

>> less pedestrian hostile.....
> what's this?(BTW there aren't any pedestrians in the tunnel to be saved by > CM)

The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried to walk across a freeway to get to the shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink have caused a massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee Valley at almost all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25%
at some hours of the day, whereas when the tollway was being built, local residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the tollway would be so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city streets. Not to mention the effect that the Tunnel has on air pollution in the inner suburbs. I live less than 300 metres from one of CityStink's tunnel exhaust stacks (where all the car fumes are pumped out in one concentrated stream).The protests of thousands of local residents for better "air scrubbing" technology were completely ignored when they built their tunnel.

>> Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get >> anywhere by car in peak hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or >> not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere > if that were true then where did all the cars go??
> l will say it again, people do not drive there cars to piss you off > they drive because its faster/cheaper/convenient/comfortable > have to go shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone, how > long do you think that would take by PT?

You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious? You can't find some shops closer to you, rather than driving half-way across town in your smogmobile so you can buy a new shirt or VCR? You are a prime example of the selfish attitude referred to above.


From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:21:02 +1000

>>Not really, can only drive it when it's available >>I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want come now they aren't the same thing at all
>>>AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine.
>> but wait you haven't been to the snow since you were 15 and surely you >> couldn't have been to them all?
>A fair number. At least some lifts that were brand new and located near >electricity supply.
but it was you that said "AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine"
not that it really matters there is still fuel being burnt to save you walking but a hill
>AFAIK they use more water (the older snow making machines didn't even >use electricity).
l think you will find that the water is first pumped up the hill and then pumped at a higher pressure to the nozzles
>Not that electricity has to come from fossil fuel anyway.
umm l really don't want to go here you are right it doesn't have to, but it mostly does and if you want it at the price we are paying now then it will stay that way.
lets see you get another damn built for some hydro
>Usually they drive when there isn't satisfactory public transport >services available, not because they have to walk to it. Five minutes >is nothing. Some people will walk up to 10 minutes, but generally not >any further unless they ave captive users.
so how is what CM is doing going to help fix that?

>>>It's got to happen sometime >> why?
>It's happened in other cities, including Perth and were did they get the money from? NSW and VIC we pay to help run the rest of the states
>>>Oh well, less pollution,
>> nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later >Not necessarily want to bet?

>>>less road trauma >> maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak >> hour(but l could be wrong)
>Reduced road capacity = less cars on the road = fewer collisions
>Where Melbourne's urban environment is hostile to pedestrians. Try >walking somewhere and you'll know what I mean.
the pedestrians are hostile to pedestrians.

>>>Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get >>>anywhere by car in peak hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or >>>not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere >> if that were true then where did all the cars go??
>Onto the roads....
no all the cars make it home as do there drivers
>Or because they don't have a choice (btw public transport is cheaper if >you consider the cost of purchasing a car). Still they don't have to be >so inconsiderate to other road users.
BS next time you want so rocks for your garden try PT and see how cheap and practical it is but l must say l wish my mum would let me sponge her car still
>> have to go shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone,
how >> long do you think that would take by PT?
>If I live in Bayswater I wouldn't bother going to Chadstone. I live >closer to Chadstone now than you do and I never go there.
so now you are going to tell me where to shop?
l didn't go to Chadstone as such be a place near by to buy a battery for my bike l wanted you to tell me how to get from bayswater to chadstone by PT

From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:34:38 GMT

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:08:08 GMT, ghostwombat <cmrocks@no-spam>
wrote:

>The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts >neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried to walk across a freeway to get to the >shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink have caused a >massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee >Valley at almost all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25%
>at some hours of the day, whereas when the tollway was being built, local >residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the tollway would be >so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city >streets.
It's not just tolls.. Don't forget that if it was a free freeway, the traffic build up would be uncontrollable, and in five years or so, the congestion on the freeway would have built up so much that you'd have the same effect as tolls have.. Just look at the Eastern Freeway or the Ring Road, you have cars venturing out onto parallel roads thinking they can get a better run there, clogging up those roads as well..

PC

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 28 Jun 2003 03:32:42 GMT

In article <3efcfb8f$0$26633$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>A fair number. At least some lifts that were brand new and located near >>electricity supply.
> but it was you that said "AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely > off a diesel engine"
> not that it really matters there is still fuel being burnt to save you > walking but a hill
I didn't say that they were electric. Last time I was at the mountains they were all diesel and any that I didn't use were too remote for an electricity supply anyway. Anyway it's totally irrelevant.

>>Not that electricity has to come from fossil fuel anyway.
> umm l really don't want to go here > you are right it doesn't have to, but it mostly does and if you want it at > the price we are paying now then it will stay that way.
> lets see you get another damn built for some hydro
Nuclear energy.... wind power.... what about that big solar chimney that's being built out in the desert?

>>It's happened in other cities, including Perth > and were did they get the money from? NSW and VIC we pay to help run the > rest of the states
Actually they delayed freeway projects in order to fix up their public transport.

>>> nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later >>Not necessarily > want to bet?

Because we can use less and less of it and there will be other alternatives. None the less it's not the only issue with using motor vehicles for urban transport.

>>Where Melbourne's urban environment is hostile to pedestrians. Try >>walking somewhere and you'll know what I mean.
> the pedestrians are hostile to pedestrians.

When do you ever see pedestrians walking into other pedestrians and killing them?

>>Onto the roads....
> no all the cars make it home as do there drivers
Eventually.... after they've been sitting in traffic jams for half the night.

> BS next time you want so rocks for your garden try PT and see how cheap and > practical it is > but l must say l wish my mum would let me sponge her car still
Last time I checked, it wasn't too practical to take rocks in our car anyway so we rang up and had them delivered. Didn't even have to leave home.

> so now you are going to tell me where to shop?

No, shop where you like, I don't care.

> l didn't go to Chadstone as such be a place near by to buy a battery for my > bike
I'm sure there would be other places that are more PT accessible.
Besides that kind of trip is occasional so it doesn't hurt *so* much to drive, as it does for your weekday commute.

> l wanted you to tell me how to get from bayswater to chadstone by PT
Train to Box Hill then 767 or 700 bus?

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:42:00 +1000

>Because they're selfish. They want their own "space" in a community of one >person, despite the fact that being sequestered in a mobile steel cage has a >measurable impact on disconnectedness from your feloow human beings
>This selfishness is the same reason that people buy 4WD's for *their*
familiy,
>with no regard to the fact that they are demonstrably 20 times more unsafe >for other road users when crashes occur. (Yes, there is survey research to >back this claim up).
less safe for themselves to
>Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is >overwhelmingly skewed between the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures?
could it be that that is when most car/bicycle are on the road???

>The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts >neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried to walk across a freeway to get to the >shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink have caused a >massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee >Valley at almost all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25%
>at some hours of the day, whereas when the tollway was being built, local >residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the tollway would be >so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city >streets. Not to mention the effect that the Tunnel has on air pollution in >the inner suburbs. I live less than 300 metres from one of CityStink's >tunnel exhaust stacks (where all the car fumes are pumped out in one >concentrated stream).The protests of thousands of local residents for better >"air scrubbing" technology were completely ignored when they built their >tunnel.
the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek or the yarra river so unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not sure what you are talking about. the other end it all in the air. where there any roads closed because of city link?

>You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious? You >can't find some shops closer to you, rather than driving half-way across >town in your smogmobile so you can buy a new shirt or VCR? You are a prime >example of the selfish attitude referred to above.
oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop?
list of your travels plans for the next month please and l will decide which trips you can and cant make if you can if a place in bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for the light on my bike and yes if l had more time today l would gladly have ridden there but l don't so l couldn't

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 28 Jun 2003 03:49:16 GMT

In article <3efd0e88$0$26638$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is >>overwhelmingly skewed between the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
> l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures?
> could it be that that is when most car/bicycle are on the road???

Now you see the point? The less cars on the road, the better.....

> the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek > or the yarra river so unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not > sure what you are talking about. the other end it all in the air. where > there any roads closed because of city link?

Try East Malvern where they knocked down houses and cut through prestigous suburbs. None the less I'd rather have a park with a creek running through it than a freeway. Quiet recrecreation/leisure places away from traffic are needed. What about the Yarra banks that are spoilt by the freeway?

> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop?
> list of your travels plans for the next month please and l will decide which > trips you can and cant make > if you can if a place in bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for > $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for the light on my
And you're trying to say that there's a freeway from Bayswater to Chadstone? I don't believe here is.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
From: ghostwombat (abc@no-spam)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:38:24 GMT

>> Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is >> overwhelmingly skewed between the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
> l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures?

Go to: http://crashstat1.roads.vic.gov.au:10243/crashstats/crash.htm and you can generate as many reports as you like about all kinds of road trauma, viewable by all sorts of variables including time of day.

> the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek > or the yarra river so unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not > sure what you are talking about. the other end it all in the air. where > there any roads closed because of city link?

Ummm... last time I looked that freeway went all the way to Geelong in one direction, and out past Dandenong in the other. Is it in the air? I think not. Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt St, Fishermans Bend,
Newport... I could go on & on about suburbs which are chopped in half.

And have you ever kayaked on the Yarra River in the shade of the freeway,
and heard how it sounds like you're kayaking down the median strip of Nepean Highway? Or tried to access the Yarra Banks from the Richmond side? (What little is left of the Yarra Banks, that is, after the builders & renovators of the multi-lane smog sewer were finished with them.)

> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop?
> list of your travels plans for the next month please and l will decide which > trips you can and cant make > if you can if a place in bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for > $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for the light on my > bike and yes if l had more time today l would gladly have ridden there but l > don't so l couldn't
You obviously had enough time today to write 3 patronisingly crap posts on this topic. Maybe you need a time-management course, or need to learn how to type faster. Then you could do all of that and still be able to ride to Chadstone. I really love "cyclists" like you who drive half-way across town to buy a part for their bike. Do you put your bike on the back of your car when you head down to Beach Rd on a Sunday morning as well?


From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:00:22 +1000

>Ummm... last time I looked that freeway went all the way to Geelong in one >direction, and out past Dandenong in the other.
umm and just how long have they been there??

>Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt St, Fishermans Bend,
>Newport... I could go on & on about suburbs which are chopped in half.
most of there roads were on the planing board for years railway lines do just as good a job of cutting suburbs in half
>You obviously had enough time today to write 3 patronisingly crap posts on >this topic. Maybe you need a time-management course, or need to learn how to >type faster. Then you could do all of that and still be able to ride to >Chadstone. I really love "cyclists" like you who drive half-way across town >to buy a part for their bike. Do you put your bike on the back of your car >when you head down to Beach Rd on a Sunday morning as well?
what l choose to do with my time has nothing to do with you and l couldn't care what you do with yours. but l cant see your list of travel plans for the next month l asked for, l would hate to think you were making any unnecessary trips but you will be happy to learn that anywhere my bike goes, my little legs push it(expect once a couple of years back l drove to mount Waverley first)
now as l said in another post that got a little screwed up and went to the wrong place l give up as you so nicely pointed out this is a waste of my time and yours

From: "Peter Signorini" (petesig@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:28:33 +1000

"stu" <st@no-spam> wrote in message news:3efd0e88$0$26638$afc38c87@no-spam >
> >You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious?
You > >can't find some shops closer to you, rather than driving half-way across > >town in your smogmobile so you can buy a new shirt or VCR? You are a prime > >example of the selfish attitude referred to above.
> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop?
> list of your travels plans for the next month please and l will decide which > trips you can and cant make > if you can if a place in bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for > $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for the light on my > bike and yes if l had more time today l would gladly have ridden there but l > don't so l couldn't
Well I would have gone to Jaycar, just up the road/rail line in Ringwood. By the time you've driven to Chadstone you'd have destroyed any savings in the battery price. D'oh
Cheers Peter

From: Smee (Smee@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:24:31 +1000

I bet you are the twit who was interviewed on 3aw and would/could not give one straight answer.
It shows by the intelligence of your posts that you are of the one mindset.
Face it you will not get any respect by your deeds regardless of what you think or what others tell you.

PC wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:48:58 GMT, jarkko@no-spam (Jarkko Altonen)
> wrote:
> > >Well said. I've been arguing a similar position for years > > And yet Critical Mass is still active in hundreds of cities > worldwide.. Is it really worth your effort?
> > PC
-- Look beyond the window, don't just focus on your own reflection.
abuse@no-spam for all spam.


From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 09:54:42 GMT

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:24:31 +1000, Smee <Smee@no-spam> wrote:

>I bet you are the twit who was interviewed on 3aw and would/could not >give one straight answer.

Nope, though one of the TV stations did ask me if I wanted to be interviewed that night, but I declined..

PC

Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
From: markle (usenet-forum@no-spam)
Date: 28 Jun 2003 22:00:05 +0950

David Sutton wrote:
> Melbourne's cyclists and skaters are gearing up to reclaim CityLink's > Burnley Tunnel for an evening of pollution-free traffic > On Friday June 27, Critical Mass will celebrate its own special brand of > "pedal power" by making a trip through CityLink's Burnley Tunnel. This > will be CM's seventh visit to the private tollway, and everyone is > invited to join us!
> 5.30pm Friday, June 27 Meet at the State Library, cnr Swanston Walk &
> LaTrobe St All cyclists & skaters welcome - Bring your friends!
> Cost: FREE!
> www.critical-mass.org
So like, did anyone go?
PS I have no TV, radio or read the newspaper.

--
>--------------------------< Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com

From: "stu" (st@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:31:47 +1000

damn didn't know there was a jaycar in ringwood but for $39.95 for the same battery l can get a radio parts for $21
but l will keep it in mind thanks

From: "Kasper Kowalski" (kasper.kowalski@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:05:37 +0930

"panasonic" <pana@no-spam> wrote in message news:Xns93A8CCCC6C074flehmleh@no-spam >
> cyclists dont like walkers getting in their way
you're not supposed to be on the footpath
> cars dont like cyclists getting in their way
perhaps if they followed the road rules... ? is the incidence of red-colour-blindness esepcially prevalent among cyclists? is there some obscure piece of legislation that requires pedestrians to give way to cyclists on pedestrian crossings?

KK

From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:43:18 GMT

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:05:37 +0930, "Kasper Kowalski"
<kasper.kowalski@no-spam> wrote:

>> cyclists dont like walkers getting in their way >
>you're not supposed to be on the footpath
There are plenty of situations where cyclists and pedestrians can legally mix, shared paths, underage cyclists, adults escorting underage cyclists..

>> cars dont like cyclists getting in their way >
>perhaps if they followed the road rules... ? is the incidence of >red-colour-blindness esepcially prevalent among cyclists? is there some >obscure piece of legislation that requires pedestrians to give way to >cyclists on pedestrian crossings?

OK, so where should cyclists be if not on the road or on the paths?

PC

From: "DRS" (drs@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:49:24 +1000

"PC" <get@no-spam> wrote in message 3efe43f1.71000283@no-spam > On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:05:37 +0930, "Kasper Kowalski"
> <kasper.kowalski@no-spam> wrote:

[...]

>>perhaps if they followed the road rules... ? is the incidence of >>red-colour-blindness esepcially prevalent among cyclists? is there some >>obscure piece of legislation that requires pedestrians to give way to >>cyclists on pedestrian crossings?
>
> OK, so where should cyclists be if not on the road or on the paths?

That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about cyclists' almost complete indifference to the road rules, including red lights. They seem to think the rules don't apply to them.

--
A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?


From: get@no-spam (PC)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 03:05:09 GMT

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:49:24 +1000, "DRS" <drs@no-spam>
wrote:

>> OK, so where should cyclists be if not on the road or on the paths?
>
>That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about cyclists' almost >complete indifference to the road rules, including red lights. They seem to >think the rules don't apply to them.

What an utterly mindless post.. I ride a pushbike, and I obey the road rules.. What's your problem with "cyclists'"?

Meanwhile, I see car drivers every minute on the road not indicating,
ignoring lane markings, ignoring bike lanes and driving down them,
speeding, running orange lights and the occasional red light, stopping on tram tracks, failing to give way to trams or tram passengers,
failing to give way to buses pulling out of bus stops, improper use of their safety devices (horns), all of which are illegal, and are probably cumulatively more prevalent than the usual offences you see committed by cyclists.. Of course, they're committed in cars, so other car drivers are blind to them, whereas they're certainly not blind to offences committed by vehicles other than cars..

How many car drivers here can say they have never illegally used their horn as a stress relief device, or failed to give way to a bus pulling out of a bus stop, both of which are fineable offences?

PC

From: "Kasper Kowalski" (kasper.kowalski@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:10:07 +0930

"PC" <get@no-spam> wrote in message news:3efe5653.75706309@no-spam
> How many car drivers here can say they have never illegally used their > horn as a stress relief device, or failed to give way to a bus pulling > out of a bus stop, both of which are fineable offences?

How many cyclists have completely disregarded red lights? How many have failed to stop for pedestrians on crossings? How many cyclists fail to signal an intention to turn?

If the roads are there for all, so are the road rules.

KK

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 29 Jun 2003 03:47:15 GMT

In article <BB2374FE.596B%abc@no-spam>, ghostwombat wrote:
> And have you ever kayaked on the Yarra River in the shade of the freeway,
> and heard how it sounds like you're kayaking down the median strip of Nepean > Highway? Or tried to access the Yarra Banks from the Richmond side? (What
Just try having a barbeque on the banks adjacent to the freeway.
Thought you were up for something peaceful and tranquil? I think not!

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 29 Jun 2003 03:53:00 GMT

In article <3efd3d07$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam>, stu wrote:
>>Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt St, Fishermans Bend,
>>Newport... I could go on & on about suburbs which are chopped in half.
> most of there roads were on the planing board for years > railway lines do just as good a job of cutting suburbs in half
Try standing 500m from a busy railway and 500m from a busy freeway and telling me which is worse. I think you'll find the railway line is barely noticable while the freeway will give off a horrible roar. Also notice how much easier it is to cross a double track railway line as opposed to a six lane freeway.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: Jeremy Lunn (spammers-must-die@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 29 Jun 2003 03:56:54 GMT

In article <Xns93A8CCD578FB0billgatescom@no-spam>, Trevor S wrote:
> err the obvious answer to this one is to move to a rural or semi rural > area...

No thanks. There's no reason why linear parks should be destoryed by freeways.
> I do have to agree with a lot of what Stu is saying even though I have an > intense dislike for the dominace of the car, PT in it's current > incarceration will never be the answer. Problem is I have no answers
Perhaps not, though once it's upgraded to a reasonable state then it'll be the answer. The answer will always be to upgrade PT and not to upgrade roads.

-- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

From: amorton@no-spam (Anthony Morton)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
Date: 30 Jun 2003 03:08:44 GMT

>> railway lines do just as good a job of cutting suburbs in half
>Try standing 500m from a busy railway and 500m from a busy freeway and >telling me which is worse.

Alternatively, imagine a six-lane freeway through the centre of Hawthorn and Camberwell where the railway is now.

TM

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:37:32 +1000
From: Ray Peace (ferret@no-spam)
Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
Good Evening Mr Sig, <br>
                                    The whole Critical Mass thing resulted
in a massive and hysterical beat-up by the media that ended up a net minus for Critical Mass and cycling generally. I have enough trouble with idiots on the roads without more aggro. <br>
Of course public transport will never be an alternative. It is locked into no major changes for the next 25 years with Jeff Kennett's CityWank contracts.
In addition to this, public transport is also locked into a 19th century timewarp with a totally antiquated timetabling structure and infrastructure that is totally outmoded. <br>
I directed an email on this subject a few months back to Steve Bracks direct,
but am not optomistic of any change in the near future. The sad fact is,
the Great God Car (a term I invented in 1977) rules. <br>
Cheers, <br>
            Ray. <br>
<br>
Peter Signorini wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3effc11b@no-spam">
<pre wrap="">"Trevor S" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bill@no-spam"><bill@no-spam</a> wrote in message<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:Xns93A8CCD578FB0billgatescom@no-spam">news:Xns93A8CCD578FB0billgatescom@no-spam</a>...<br></pre>

<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I do have to agree with a lot of what Stu is saying even though I have an<br>intense dislike for the dominace of the car, PT in it's current<br>incarceration will never be the answer.<br></pre>

</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!----><br>Try a Google search on 'Toronto' 'public transport'<br><br>Cheers<br>Peter<br><br><br></pre>

</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>


Subject: Re: Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!
From: cfsmtb (usenet-forum@no-spam)
Date: 4 Jul 2003 14:30:07 +0950

[QUOTE>>
>Standard cop out: -car hits ped/cyclist, "they were >drunk/erratic/couldn't see 'em" -cyclist hits pedestrain, "speeding >renegade bike riders"

Maybe they _were tipsy, after all, Da Bomb makes a frame with a gusset that doubles as a bottle opener.

I'm attempting to make sense of the tangle of threads on this topic.
Fellow cyclists wishing death & injury upon amongst other things, other cyclists. I just lurvve inhabiting in a "civil society" where extreme violence is still seen as a viable recourse to differing opinions. Or maybe they were just trolls from aus.car afterall. For appraisal of CM thread, see url below. http://eleaston.com/chicken.html
--
>--------------------------< Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com