I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
get my drift).
So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
want the facts
Thanks
Angela
PS. A notebook is what I am after
Basically I want to turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off
without fiddling around.
Nuff said. Definitely Mac.
Basically I will be using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel
stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2).
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
An Intel or AMD based system is better.
Cheaper + it does what you want.
I am a MAC and x86 user too btw ;)
=bob=
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/2003
<ryako@no-spam> wrote in message news:3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
> know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
> some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
> better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
> get my drift).
>
I have both and all I can say is that a name brand PC running Office is much
better integrated than Mac OS X will ever be.
The fact that Microsoft has PC's covered from end to end says a lot about
the ease of use.
MacOS X is a pig to setup with some type of ADSL and other tid-bits. And you
can forget about easy tricks doing some future advanced stuff.
PC's can be upgraded cheaply, taught easily and cheaply and there are many
people on here that can help.
You will grow out of the "im a novice" really quick and before long you will
wonder why you would need a Mac since it can only be serviced by ONE
corporation compared to the hundreds of people who can service a PC.
Dont assume you will always be ignorant. That lasts about 2 weeks.
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:27:19 GMT
In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
> I have done some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users
> say Macs are better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about
> Macs etc. (you get my drift).
This is likely to happen if you rely on what *users* will tell you. This
is because a user is used to what he uses (of course!). There will be a
natural reaction against that which is strange and unfamiliar. Even
those who use both PCs and Macs are likely to be more used to one than
the other.
The alternative is to try to find the opinions of those who know more
about their relative merits than merely by being users, and moreover who
know from personal experience, rather than repeating what they have
heard, or read. Such people unfortunately are thin on the ground.
I have been working with computers since 1960, and with microprocessors
and personal computers since the early 70s. I have used both PCs and
Macs for many years, and seen them both grow up. I know them intimately
from the inside as well as the outside. I have seen both their hardware
and their software laid bare. I have programmed complete applications
for both PC and Mac.
So, what would I advise? Is it perhaps a case of six of one and half a
dozen of the other? It most certainly is not.
If I were spending my own money and had any choice at all, it would be a
Macintosh every time.
--
Alec McKenzie
mckenzie@no-spam
<ryako@no-spam> wrote in
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
Well, I'm after the same thing, with the same questions as you have..
The problem is that for 1500 Euros I can buy a 12" iBook which cover my
needs (I live in the Netherlands), but this is one of the cheaper models of
the laptop Mac series. For the same amount of money I can buy a much better
PC laptop, with infrared, 512 Megs of RAM, yes even with S-TFT screen
(better resolution). Especially with the 'newer' Pentium/AMD mobile
processors other advantages of apple over PC (longer batterylife, more quit,
weight) are minimal. What I really wanted was a powerbook 14", but this
model starts at about 2200 Euro's, which is way over my budget.
I would probably have gone for an iBook, till I found out about the
garuantee Apple is providing: 1 year, and if you want more: you'll have to
pay for it. Also stories about bad service in this respect didn't help me
convince that Apple really is giving that bit of extra service you would (I
would) expect.
Therefore, I've decided to buy an Asus laptop. They provide standard 2 yrs
Pickup and Return garuantee, good quality, good screen, and very complete.
Another reason why I chose this, is because I have some PC-peripherals, for
which I would have to buy adaptors: also more money. And if I want to do
some wireless interetting, I don't have to spend hundreds of Euro's for a
broadcaster (Airport), extra PC stuff is also lots and lots cheaper. The
problem with spyware, virusses, etc can be easily solved with good software.
But hey, these were my considerations, perhaps you have others. Let us know
what you've decided...
greetings from Holland,
Sting
In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam writes:
>I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
>know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
>some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
>better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
>get my drift).
>
>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
>SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
>want the facts
I am running a date processing department. We support PCs and Macs (around 300
Macs and 50 PCs). In addition we store the amount of time we spend on a
problem. Now if I do some statistics on this database I find
- we spend only about 25% of the time with an average Mac compared to that
of an average PC
Now one might speculate about the reasons. Anyway, I would like to point out
that this reflects mainly OS9 and below and only very few OS-X at the moment.
Regards,
Christoph Gartmann
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 |
| Immunbiologie |
| Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@no-spam |
| D-79011 Freiburg, Germany |
+------------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html -------------+
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:54:07 +1000, ryako@no-spam wrote:
>I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
>know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
>some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
>better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
>get my drift).
>
>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
>SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
>want the facts
>
>Thanks
>
>Angela
>
>PS. A notebook is what I am after
If you go PC route and "want to turn it on, do what I have to do then
turn it off without fiddling around.", you are best off going to a
store like Harvey Norman or Clive Peeters (or similar store) pay that
extra (which will make it pretty equal to a Mac cost) and make sure
they set it up for you including all software you require so you can
switch it on and go.
Once they are set up, they are pretty equal overall (IMHO).
You also will not need the most expensive shiniest computer either
(but make sure you get at least "512MB RAM").
"Larry Fransson" <newsgroups@no-spam> wrote in message
news:newsgroups-14E05F.02305025062003@no-spam
> In article <3ef96165$0$26633$afc38c87@no-spam>,
> " Miro" <miro01@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > MacOS X is a pig to setup with some type of ADSL and other tid-bits. And
you
> > can forget about easy tricks doing some future advanced stuff.
>
> Say what? Setting up OS X with my broadband connections has always been
> an absolute no-brainer. Which easy tricks and future advanced stuff are
> we talking about? That's a little vague, to say the least.
>
**** It's not vague. It's bloody boring and it can be a disaster. Ok then
..... how do you connect an EPSON Inkjet to the network where all the PC's
can print and MacOSX needs to be able to do the same thing. PC = 2 min,
MacOS X ...... no official dealer or vendor support ...... work it out
yourself. ( I did).
> > PC's can be upgraded cheaply, taught easily and cheaply and there are
many
> > people on here that can help.
>
> If PCs were always that simple to use, one would think I wouldn't end up
> swearing at my wife's PC every time I try to do something a little out
> of the ordinary with it.
>
***** You have a CRAP PC ..... that was your choice, CHOICE. Only ONE
factory makes MAC.
> > You will grow out of the "im a novice" really quick and before long you
will
> > wonder why you would need a Mac since it can only be serviced by ONE
> > corporation compared to the hundreds of people who can service a PC.
>
> Service? What is this "service"? Thirteen years, five Macs (one a
> laptop), and the only service any of them has ever needed was the time I
> thought there was a disk stuck in the laptop's floppy drive and I tried
> to eject it with a paper clip. (There was no disk in the drive.) I
> sprung the mechanism somehow and had to have the drive replaced.
>
**** Why dont you try and get a power supply.
> On top of that, "service" doesn't mean sending it back to the factory.
> There are Apple certified repair centers in places other than Cupertino.
***** And they are all expensive, all of them 3-4 days wait and all of them
indifferent (Sydney at least).
"julie simpson" <js@no-spam> wrote in message
news:js-060674.21070225062003@no-spam
> In article <newsgroups-14E05F.02305025062003@no-spam>,
> Larry Fransson <newsgroups@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > In article <3ef96165$0$26633$afc38c87@no-spam>,
> > " Miro" <miro01@no-spam> wrote:
> >
> > > MacOS X is a pig to setup with some type of ADSL and other tid-bits.
And you
> > > can forget about easy tricks doing some future advanced stuff.
> >
> > Say what? Setting up OS X with my broadband connections has always been
> > an absolute no-brainer. Which easy tricks and future advanced stuff are
> > we talking about? That's a little vague, to say the least.
>
> Larry, since you've not come upon Miro, I suggest you do a little
> googling. He's the king of unqualified assertions, and the instigator of
> numerous flamewars in aus.photo. I haven't personally jousted with him,
> since life's too short, but he's somewhat notorious in Australian news
> groups.
>
Rubbish Julie, you are talking out of your proverbial.
Try setting up BPA Login if you have a router config with BPA and the router
cant do its own logon.
If you want to throw shit then try not to hit yourself with it. Its anchors
like you that deserve no respect.
In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
> know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
> some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
> better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
> get my drift).
>
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
Of course you'll get my biased opinion, so let me start by telling you
where my bias comes from:
30 years in IT, used anything from an IBM360, PDP-11, first Pascal
compilers, microprocessors, Suns (Unix-machines), LISP-machines, VAX,
PC's from MS-DOS on an 8086 onwards, Mac's from the original Mac
onwards, programmed in more languages than I care for today, ...
and I started out as an Electronics engineer doing digital VLSI IC
design (that's how today's CPU's got made), etc
Now: Both a Windows laptop and a Mac OSX laptop will work.
It's just much easier on a Mac most of the time. And you'll enjoy it
most of the time. Much less of that strange interaction of different
programs because they change settings in the registry - just because
there is none. And if you want, you'll find most settings needed (like
different accounts) can be done in a nice manner with a clean,
understandeable user interface.
I have and still do travel with both machines.
You know the pun:
PC-user: I can connect a CD-burner, a scanner, the internet, MIDI etc
all to my PC
Mac-user: So can I, and I'll even be able to use it all at the same time.
There is some truth in that.
If I have to pay for it, it will be a Mac every time.
Case in point: Yesterday I had to set up a laptop to work with a beamer.
Plugged the beamer into my Mac (closed), opened it and it works. No F5
pressing and such. It automatically switched resolution to match the
beamer. Question by the assistant: Is that all that's needed?
My recommendation: Get an iBook or Powerbook with the biggest screen you
can afford, buy RAM at another place instead of Apple, get a second
battery if you're on the road and most likely you'll be happy.
If it's got to be real cheap, get a Pismo powerbook (3 years old, some
500 USD), and it still works with Mac OSX.
Why?
For the same reason as me: I want to turn it on, do what I have to do,
then turn it off without fiddling around.
Even though I know computers to considerable detail, when I use it as a
tool, that's just what I want to do: use it as a tool.
>
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
If it is of some value to you, Gartner group (IT consulting) published a
report essentially proving life cycle costs for Mac to be much lower
because of much lower maintenance (help desk etc) - ie users tend to get
along with less help.
HTH
Marc
--
Marc Heusser - Zurich, Switzerland
Coaching - Consulting - Counselling - Psychotherapy
http://www.heusser.com
remove the obvious CHEERS and MERCIAL... from the reply address
to reply via e-mail
And how do you conference with someone doing MSN telephone calls ?
Clearly OSX does not support such facilities with the other 90% of the IT
world.
In article <3ef96b13$0$13798$4d4ebb8e@no-spam>, Sting
<mail@no-spam> wrote:
> <ryako@no-spam> wrote in
> > SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> > want the facts
>
> > PS. A notebook is what I am after
>
> Well, I'm after the same thing, with the same questions as you have..
>
> The problem is that for 1500 Euros I can buy a 12" iBook which cover my
> needs (I live in the Netherlands), but this is one of the cheaper models of
> the laptop Mac series. For the same amount of money I can buy a much better
> ...
> Therefore, I've decided to buy an Asus laptop. ..
>
Well sting,
I have to say I made the other choice, after many years of devoted PC
only use. I'm not much of a programmer (just a bit of Cobol and Pick
basic in the early 80's) , but I've been a PC user since the days of
DOS, fiddling with autoexec.bat and trying to multi-task. For the past
5 years or so I have administered a Wintel network (SBS 4.5 based ..
mixed laptop/desktop clients running everything from win 95 to win XP
as a favour to a small company.
I built my own desktop PC about 9 months ago and have a sony vaio
laptop which is now a couple of years old.
So I was pretty firmly grounded in the Wintel camp, with a little (very
little) experience of Linux. Basically a power user i would say.
6 months ago I decided to get an iBook because replacing the dying
battery on my year-old Vaio was going to cost a ridiculous amount.
It's been an absolute revelation to me.
Everything just works.
The software is by and large a joy to use. Far less fiddling around
tweaking to get it working, and far more enjoyable to use. Much cleaner
design. When people see the presentations that Keynote creates I hear
audible gasps from the audience .. and not in a bad way.
(But I still get to fiddle at a command prompt if I want.)
The hardware design detail far outstrips anything I've seen on an intel
based laptop. Simple things like the design of the tiny power pack,
with its built-in clip to wind the cable up, or the design of the
keyboard, which is a pleasure to touch type on, or the 4 hour battery
life (going down to 2.5 hours if you watch a DVD, but still plenty to
finish the filim) make the Mac a delight to use compared to a Sony
Vaio.
I enjoyed building my own desktop PC, but honestly compared to the
pleasure of using my Mac iBook (12in) it pales into insignificance.
I didn't set out to become a Mac evangelist, and I'm a bit shocked
about how much I've ended up gushing about it. But for me there is
simply no comparison. (even before I got an iPod!). And for the first
time in a long time I've got no desire to upgrade/change machines after
the first flush of the honeymoon period.
regards
mollw
p.s. in case you think I'm a professionaly smug owner, I have to say
that nothing else I own makes me was lyrical. Cars, hi fi, tv etc. are
all pretty mediocre!
ryako@no-spam wrote:
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
> know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
> some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
> better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
> get my drift).
>
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
>
> Thanks
>
> Angela
>
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
>
Definatly a Mac
ryako@no-spam wrote:
>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
I recently bought Apple's low-end iBook (12" screen, 700 MHz
processor) and even with a corporate discount through my former
employer, paid close to US $1,000 for it.
That iBook will be going to an Apple service center in a box today for
service for a display problem that seems to be pretty common, as I've
learned by reading the posts at apple.com's discussion boards.
The laptop came with 128 MB of RAM, I added 256 MB and I'm using OS
9.2.2 exclusively (save for a couple of excursions into OS X.
The computer has no DVD or built-in CD burner.
A few weeks earlier, my brother bought a Toshiba Satellite laptop for
US $800 or so. It runs Windows XP and he reports that it is a
rock-solid stable OS and has supported, via plug-and-play, every
device he's thrown at it. That PC laptop has a DVD player and now for
the same price one can purchase a laptop with a combo DVD player and
CD-RW burner.
I should mention that my brother is also a Mac user. His home desktop
computer is a Quicksilver G4 and his work computer is a Mac Wallstreet
laptop. But when he bought a computer for his own use, he opted for a
Wintel machine and he says he definitely made the right choice.
I've used Macs since 1987 and also spent six years in a Windows NT
(ugh!) work environment. My work PC now has Windows 2000 on it. I have
more Mac experience and currently find the Mac OS (9.2.2, anyway)
easier to use, but I haven't taken the time to refamiliarize myself
with Windows.
In your case, I'd look at two overriding options:
1.) What OS do you have familiarity with now?
2.) What software do you currently own?
You say you're going to use, basically, MS Office and Photoshop. If
you already have Windows versions of these programs, you'll probably
be better off buying the Windows laptop because, if not, you're going
to be out more than the price of the computer for the software ($900
for a low-end iBook, $300 or so for Office and $600 or so for
Photoshop). The 'Net apps are preinstalled so you won't have to pay
for anything in that regard.
If you're starting from scratch, truthfully, I'd go with the PC. I've
stuck with the Mac because I already have a lot invested in software.
I've been heartened to see that the new Mac G5s offer OS 9 as a boot
option, which has caused me to soften my stance that I've bought my
last Mac, but I'm seriously thinking that my next computer purchase
will be a PC.
Others have mentioned spyware and viruses, but if you don't download
and install a lot of shareware, and if you run a good antivirus
program, you should be safe in those regards.
Windows wins on price, compatibility and availability of software;
Apple has a slight edge on ease of use (Windows has narrowed the gap
tremendously in that regard in recent years), so again, I say go with
your own familiarity and what software you already have.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins mailto:hbelkins@no-spam or mailto:HBE1@no-spam
http://www.millenniumhwy.net
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins
"There's no doubt he's the best race driver in the world."
--Dale Jarrett, on Dale Earnhardt (RIP 2/18/01)
I'm for Waltrip, Kentucky and whoever's playing North Carolina or Tennessee
To reply, you gotta do what NASCAR won't -- remove the restrictor plates!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Marc Heusser wrote:
> In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
>
>
>>I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
>>know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
>>some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
>>better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
>>get my drift).
>>
>>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
>
> Of course you'll get my biased opinion, so let me start by telling you
> where my bias comes from:
> 30 years in IT, used anything from an IBM360, PDP-11, first Pascal
> compilers, microprocessors, Suns (Unix-machines), LISP-machines, VAX,
> PC's from MS-DOS on an 8086 onwards, Mac's from the original Mac
> onwards, programmed in more languages than I care for today, ...
> and I started out as an Electronics engineer doing digital VLSI IC
> design (that's how today's CPU's got made), etc
>
> Now: Both a Windows laptop and a Mac OSX laptop will work.
> It's just much easier on a Mac most of the time. And you'll enjoy it
> most of the time. Much less of that strange interaction of different
> programs because they change settings in the registry - just because
> there is none. And if you want, you'll find most settings needed (like
> different accounts) can be done in a nice manner with a clean,
> understandeable user interface.
> I have and still do travel with both machines.
>
> You know the pun:
> PC-user: I can connect a CD-burner, a scanner, the internet, MIDI etc
> all to my PC
> Mac-user: So can I, and I'll even be able to use it all at the same time.
> There is some truth in that.
>
> If I have to pay for it, it will be a Mac every time.
>
> Case in point: Yesterday I had to set up a laptop to work with a beamer.
> Plugged the beamer into my Mac (closed), opened it and it works. No F5
> pressing and such. It automatically switched resolution to match the
> beamer. Question by the assistant: Is that all that's needed?
>
> My recommendation: Get an iBook or Powerbook with the biggest screen you
> can afford, buy RAM at another place instead of Apple, get a second
> battery if you're on the road and most likely you'll be happy.
> If it's got to be real cheap, get a Pismo powerbook (3 years old, some
> 500 USD), and it still works with Mac OSX.
>
> Why?
> For the same reason as me: I want to turn it on, do what I have to do,
> then turn it off without fiddling around.
> Even though I know computers to considerable detail, when I use it as a
> tool, that's just what I want to do: use it as a tool.
>
>>SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
>>want the facts
>
>
> If it is of some value to you, Gartner group (IT consulting) published a
> report essentially proving life cycle costs for Mac to be much lower
> because of much lower maintenance (help desk etc) - ie users tend to get
> along with less help.
>
> HTH
>
> Marc
>
You had me going in the first sentence,I was certain You were selling
*windowXP with ViperThreading *Pentium's and *MCSE certifications at
half price.
In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
>I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
>know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
>some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
>better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
>get my drift).
>
>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
>SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
>want the facts
I love it! "Unbiased opinions"? Already about 20 zealots into the
conflict. (Not really. About 20 contibutions, some multiple.)
Since you posted to three Mac groups and one general computer group, I
suspect you've already made up your mind. So go with the
discriminating 3% (including "Others") and ignore the 97% hoi polloi.
[Actually, I gave up on Apple back in the days of the TRS-80 Model I
and the Apple II when we discovered Applesoft BASIC didn't know about
printers and you had to PEEK and POKE around to get one to work with
the things. Or some sort of fudging around like that. The details
are misty now. It was a pain in the butt anyway, as is obvious seeing
I'm still complaining. :) ]
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerkDELETE@no-spam
H.B. Elkins wrote:
> I've used Macs since 1987 and also spent six years in a Windows NT
> (ugh!) work environment. My work PC now has Windows 2000 on it. I have
> more Mac experience and currently find the Mac OS (9.2.2, anyway)
> easier to use, but I haven't taken the time to refamiliarize myself
> with Windows.
I realize OS 9 is important to you for your own reasons. But IMO,
recommending it to a new Mac user is on a par with setting up a new PC
user with Windows 95 (or even 3.1!).
To the OP: if you finally opt for the Mac, do yourself a favor and stick
with OS X.
> If you're starting from scratch, truthfully, I'd go with the PC. I've
> stuck with the Mac because I already have a lot invested in software.
> I've been heartened to see that the new Mac G5s offer OS 9 as a boot
> option,
Where did you hear that? AFAIK the G5 does not boot OS 9. On the other
hand, all the G4 towers being sold until the G5s ship do boot OS 9.
Perhaps that's what you're thinking of?
My recommendation is that you do the following:
1) Spend time expanding the description of what you want to use the computer
for. For some reason people tend to purchase computers and describe only
the basic need for them...the trigger decision on what made them decide to
purchase one.
Are you leaving anything out of your description? It seems a little odd
that you'd have PhotoShop by itself...is this for print, photo, web
publishing?
This is much like buying a car to drive from home to a new job. All of a
sudden you'll start realizing there are all kinds of places you'll be going
to.
You're looking at getting a laptop...would you want to use it to play DVDs?
Would you use it to store a library of MP3s? Would you ever get a digital
camera?
2) Go to an APPLE store (if possible) and PC store and spend some time
having a salesperson show you how to do what it is that you want to do.
Apple Store employees are really good, and many other stores have great
Apple salespeople too. However, there are always going to be a few
not-so-good people or people having bad days. The point that I'm getting at
is that if you walk into a crappy store, get a sales jerk having a bad day
showing you a demo unit that some monkey on crack was just pounding away at,
and then only spend 2 minutes making an evaluation, you'll probably not come
close to what the overall experience will be with a Mac (same with a PC).
I'd recommend making a few visits and talking to a few salespeople. You
spent the time posting a well written enquiry here so obviously this is
important enough to you to spend the time making a really good evaluation.
It's also one that involves more than just money. You're going to invest a
hell of a lot of time learning, configuring, and using either system. The
amount of time you spend evaluating which is best will be only a fraction.
As you compare the two, ask the salespeople questions, but get written
answers for anything spec as opposed to opinion related...they should all
have brochures.
The bottom line is that one should *feel* better to you...go with this
feeling. There's MS Office for both and Photoshop for both (along with
thousands of other applications for both).
Personally, I just can not use Photoshop on a PC. I have the latest version
for Windows XP, and I've tried almost every version ever made for Windows.
It just doesn't *feel* right to me.
I also find OSX to be far better than Windows XP.
I have several Macs and several PCs. My Macs last twice as long as my PCs.
I've never purchased a PC, I've only gotten them for free as a result of
working on projects. If it wasn't for cross-platform development I would
never have a PC...as a matter of fact, VirtualPC with Windows XP now runs so
well on my Mac that I tend to use it as opposed to turning on my PC.
--keved
in article 3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam ryako@no-spam at
ryako@no-spam wrote on 6/24/03 10:54 PM:
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
> know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
> some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
> better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
> get my drift).
>
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
>
> Thanks
>
> Angela
>
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
>
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:47:58 GMT, hbelkins@no-spam
(H.B. Elkins) wrote:
>I've been heartened to see that the new Mac G5s offer OS 9 as a boot
>option, which has caused me to soften my stance that I've bought my
You mean the "new" Mac G4s at $1299, right?
>last Mac, but I'm seriously thinking that my next computer purchase
>will be a PC.
ryako@no-spam wrote:
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
Angela, I think you've pretty much made a textbook case for purchasing a
Macintosh.
If you want a new system and need maximum portability, I'd suggest a 12"
Powerbook G4. They're reasonably powerful, although not as much so as
the larger Powerbooks, and offer a much lower price and much better
portability.
You might also want to consider a monitor/keyboard/mouse for home use
with it; any old USB monitor/keyboard will work, although I suggest a
Logitech keyboard since they typically include drivers to make the
keyboard layout make sense or an Apple one (where it always makes sense).
I hope that in some way helps.
As for whether or not I'm unbaised: I admit I prefer the Macintosh, but
I have tons of experience with both systems. In fact, I'm typing this on
my Windows PC since my Powerbook is in its carrying case ready to go to
work.... :)
Most people feel that the Mac are easier to use but the PC cost less
and have more application software. The Mac has all the software the
average person needs. There may not be a dozen software packages to
pick as on the PC from but there is one that does the job. Mac users
focus on getting work done, PC users focus on piddling around with
their computer. PC user like lots of buttons and options to pick
from. Mac user's like for Apple to figure things out.
It's hard to pay more for your computer but you will be glad you did
everyday you use the machine.
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff),
MS Office is 100% compatible between Windows and the Mac. Mac Office
does not include the database program Access.
> Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it.
Yeah even with Windows XP finding the control panel you need takes
some time. I think you will be able to do it on the Mac if you want
too.
The Mac comes ready to use out of the box. It includes a bunch of
software. The Windows is ready for you to install your software. The
first thing you must do on a Windows box is install your software. On
the Mac, you open the box and get to work.
Technical note: Goto the site www.washingtonpost.com on a new a new
computer. The Mac will be able to view the entire site I do not
believe a PC will be able too. Mac includes acrobat reader, and
quicktime. The PC does not. PC user must download and install these
programs.
> Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
Get a Mac. Consider the iBook.
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
I own a Mac but use Windows at work.
>
> Thanks
>
> Angela
>
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
Get a Mac.
<ryako@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
> know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
> some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs
are
> better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc.
(you
> get my drift).
>
The short answer is
1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more popular
and common , have a standardised type of interface , more available
software applications , and you don't have the problem of converting Mac
files/formats to PC files/formats when sharing files with other people.
2) Upgrading , getting /replacing new hardware for Macs is more
expensive than for PCs because the Mac hardware is proprietary
hardware and Apple can charge what they want.
Hardware improvements for the Macs are a lot slower than the PCs because
the Macs are made by only one company and they use proprietary hardware
, while the PC hardware is obtained from many different organisations
and developers who are consistently attempting to develop and improve
their products.
Get a PC , you will have less problems overall.
--
Sandgroper
-----------------------------------
Remove KNICKERS to Email
steveray@no-spam
In article <3ef9e0ea$0$11170@no-spam>,
"Sandgroper" <steveray@no-spam> wrote:
> The short answer is
>
> 1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
> other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more popular
> and common ,
Just like McDonalds.
> have a standardised type of interface ,
You're kidding, right? The Mac will always win this one based on the
fact that only one company sets the rules. You silly person.
> more available
> software applications ,
Just how many word processers does one need, exactly?
> and you don't have the problem of converting Mac
> files/formats to PC files/formats when sharing files with other people.
Still the most oft quoted non-reason out there. We Mac people don't need
to do file translation as often as you all seem to think. The whole
issue is slowing dying anyway with most file types becoming standarised
all the time.
> 2) Upgrading , getting /replacing new hardware for Macs is more
> expensive than for PCs because the Mac hardware is proprietary
> hardware and Apple can charge what they want.
You obviously still don't grasp the concept of overall cost of ownership.
> Hardware improvements for the Macs are a lot slower than the PCs because
> the Macs are made by only one company and they use proprietary hardware
> , while the PC hardware is obtained from many different organisations
> and developers who are consistently attempting to develop and improve
> their products.
Yes, Apple never improves their products. Idiot.
> Get a PC , you will have less problems overall.
Laughable at best.
You can't go wrong, you'll be happy with either one -- though as a
lifelong Mac user, I think you'll be happier with a Mac.
There is, however, one other significantconsideration maybe not yet
mentioned in this long thread: security.
If your mchine will, now or later, be connected to any kind of broadband
netework via DSL, cable modem, Airport, in your home or elsewhere, and
you go with a Windows machine, there's somewhere between a high
probability and a virtual certainty that your computer will be hacked
into over this connection. This may only mean that your email lists
will be used by spammers, or possibly some of your private files spread
around, or possibly more serious damage to your data.
This is much less likely to happen with a Mac, and IMHO is an almost
compelling reason to go with a Mac.
Sting <mail@no-spam> wrote:
In general I have no quarrel with your decision, except:
> And if I want to do
> some wireless interetting, I don't have to spend hundreds of Euro's for a
> broadcaster (Airport),
Wireless on an Apple is bog standard. You can buy any wireless router
you want; the Apple one is just a little easier to configure but not by
a lot.
(Say, what's the situation in the Netherlands these days? If I tote a
laptop with me through Amsterdam, where can I access the internet? How
are smaller towns?)
V.
--
mail me at lastname at cs utk edu
Christoph Gartmann <gartmann@no-spam> wrote:
> Anyway, I would like to point out
> that this reflects mainly OS9 and below and only very few OS-X at the moment.
My guess is that an OSX machine needs as little service, but your users
will have less downtime. Rebooting is almost a thing of the past for me.
Just every couple of weeks, when Apple has a security update and such.
V.
--
mail me at lastname at cs utk edu
Marc Heusser <marc.heusser@no-spam>
wrote:
> Case in point: Yesterday I had to set up a laptop to work with a beamer.
> Plugged the beamer into my Mac (closed), opened it and it works. No F5
> pressing and such. It automatically switched resolution to match the
> beamer. Question by the assistant: Is that all that's needed?
You mean a projector? Yeah. The other day one of our IBM laptops, which
had used the projector a million times before, suddenly refused to
project. We hooked up my Powerbook, found the right settings on the
projector, then hooked up the IBM again and found the right settings on
it. You can not trouble shoot two problems at the same time, so with the
Mac which is guaranteed to work we eliminated one :-)
V.
--
mail me at lastname at cs utk edu
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:17:54 +1000, "Tony Turner" <tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
>snip
><:
>: SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
>: want the facts
>:
>: Thanks
>:
>: Angela
>:
>: PS. A notebook is what I am after
>
>I hate the way most versions of windows crash inexplicably, unpredictably
>and unapologetically.
You have a problems then, My windows 2000 machines do not crash.
> I hate being at the mercy of a monolith such as microsoft.
I agree with that one.
> So why do we have four Intel machines in the house and not one
>Mac? The application that I use in making my living is written for windows
>and will never be available for the Mac. Most scientific applications that
>we use are written for windows or Linux
Are you aware that MAC osX IS linux
> or DOS. Not for the Mac and probably
In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
> SO, I hope it doesn't cause too much cross-platform conflict, I just
> want the facts
There are no facts that can answer your question. There are merits to
both platforms, and which you prefer will be a matter of choice. May I
suggest you rent one of each for a week or two? Give them both a strong
side-by-side workout and see which suits your tastes the best.
--
Chicago, IL
Remove "GO" to reply.
In article <aickfvstg1lrq4dkh7on6cu4v14jql4586@no-spam>,
derek / nul <abuse@no-spam> wrote:
> Are you aware that MAC osX IS linux
Har. I really want to know where you read that, and why you believe
everything you read.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:55:46 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@no-spam> wrote:
>In article <aickfvstg1lrq4dkh7on6cu4v14jql4586@no-spam>,
> derek / nul <abuse@no-spam> wrote:
>
>> Are you aware that MAC osX IS linux
>
>Har. I really want to know where you read that, and why you believe
>everything you read.
as pointed out by another its a port of freebsd
derek / nul wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:55:46 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@no-spam> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <aickfvstg1lrq4dkh7on6cu4v14jql4586@no-spam>,
>>derek / nul <abuse@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you aware that MAC osX IS linux
>>
>>Har. I really want to know where you read that, and why you believe
>>everything you read.
>
>
> as pointed out by another its a port of freebsd
And that makes it Linux how? Or is it that you don't know what Linux is?
On 6/25/03 5:17 PM, in article 1056579279.148049@no-spam "Tony
Turner" <tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
> I hate the way most versions of windows crash inexplicably, unpredictably
> and unapologetically. I hate being at the mercy of a monolith such as
> microsoft. So why do we have four Intel machines in the house and not one
> Mac?
To address some of your points for informational purposes:
> The application that I use in making my living is written for windows
> and will never be available for the Mac. Most scientific applications that
> we use are written for windows or Linux or DOS. Not for the Mac and probably
> not ever.
So if you really want the ease of use of a Mac, pick up Virtual PC and have
a dual OS system. Virtual PC - though completely inadequate for computer
gaming - is the ideal solution to run the occasional darkside office app on
your Mac.
> It is easy for us to swap hard disks between machines, and I am
> led to believe it is not easy with a Mac.
Why wouldn't it be? Several generations of Macs have used standard IDE hard
drives now, just like Intel/AMD machines.
> I am surrounded by dozens of
> windows users who might help me out of a problem at some stage, and I know
> only one Mac user.
Yes. However, 1. You'll have fewer problems with your Mac and 2. Should you
have a problem you'll have access to a very well informed and active
community of online Mac users that will not only try and help you - but will
be more likely to come up with a good solution to your problem than a guy
two doors down.
derek / nul wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:55:46 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@no-spam> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <aickfvstg1lrq4dkh7on6cu4v14jql4586@no-spam>,
>>derek / nul <abuse@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you aware that MAC osX IS linux
>>
>>Har. I really want to know where you read that, and why you believe
>>everything you read.
>
>
> as pointed out by another its a port of freebsd
A port of What?
FreeBSD is a source derivative of BSD(Berkeley Softwre Distribution)
Darwin is a source derivitive of BSD(Berkeley Software Distribution)
http://www.gnu-darwin.org
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
Quote from Apple"
Beneath the appealing, easy-to-use interface of Mac OS X is a
rock-solid foundation that is engineered for stability, reliability, and
performance. This foundation is a core operating system commonly known
as Darwin. Darwin integrates a number of technologies, most importantly
Mach 3.0, operating-system services based on 4.4BSD (Berkeley Software
Distribution), high-performance networking facilities, and support for
multiple integrated file systems." end Quote
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/explaining-bsd/index.html
Description from FreeBSD Quote"
What is a Real Unix?
BSD operating systems are not clones, but open source derivatives of
AT&T's Research UNIX operating system, which is also the ancestor of the
modern UNIX System V. This may surprise you. How could that happen when
AT&T has never released its code as open source?
It is true that AT&T UNIX is not open source, and in a copyright sense
BSD is very definitely not UNIX, but on the other hand, AT&T has
imported sources from other projects, noticeably the Computer Sciences
Research Group of the University of California in Berkeley, CA. Starting
in 1976, the CSRG started releasing tapes of their software, calling
them Berkeley Software Distribution or BSD.
"End Quote
<ryako@no-spam> wrote:
>I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
>know the good and bad points about Mac and PC (Intel etc). I have done
>some searching and the general consensus is that Mac users say Macs are
>better and PCs are bad and vice versa for PC users about Macs etc. (you
>get my drift).
If you like the way Microsoft thinks you should work then you'll
probably be happier with Windows. It has the advantage of having
broader support. If you need cheap go Windows. If you want a
computer that is better behaved and easier to use, then go Mac.
If you need the best performance go Mac.
>So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
>using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
>and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
>HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
>configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
>turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
Try using each. Pick the one that annoys you the least.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@no-spam
"Victor Eijkhout" <see.signature@no-spam> wrote in message
news:1fx4d22.di1ccjk7ka39N%
> (Say, what's the situation in the Netherlands these days? If I tote a
> laptop with me through Amsterdam, where can I access the internet? How
> are smaller towns?)
I haven't got a clue...
but of course, that's because I don't have wireless internet just yet...
perhaps I will in a couple of days... :-)
Sting
I think the rest of us are getting sick and tired of all these
UNBIASED opinions. End this discussion and now let the man make up his
own mind. Just as an after thought if you follow the trail of all the
messages in this discussion - the MAC users are the ones making the
most noise - I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions.
cheers
Gazza
"Sting" <mail@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3efa9f26$0$8305$4d4ebb8e@no-spam
"Victor Eijkhout" <see.signature@no-spam> wrote in message
news:1fx4d22.di1ccjk7ka39N%
> (Say, what's the situation in the Netherlands these days? If I tote
a
> laptop with me through Amsterdam, where can I access the internet?
How
> are smaller towns?)
I haven't got a clue...
but of course, that's because I don't have wireless internet just
yet...
perhaps I will in a couple of days... :-)
Sting
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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thought it was Angelus
(Couldn't find original message to see who posted it so took pot
luck - no luck?)
"julie simpson" <js@no-spam> wrote in message
news:js-E2C681.19473426062003@no-spam
In article <ZYyKa.595$Py2.5825@no-spam>,
"Gazza Ozzie" <gazzaozzie@no-spam> wrote:
> End this discussion and now let the man make up his
> own mind.
Yo, Gazza, how many men do you know named Angela? :)
J.
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"Samuel Tang" <samueltang@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3EF9ECD6.D6006BD5@no-spam
> Hi Sandgroper,
>
> I tend to stay away from "platform debates" (to put it mildly), but I
am
> interested in your statements:
>
> Sandgroper wrote:
>
> (snipped)
>
> > The short answer is
> >
> > 1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
> > other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more
popular
> > and common , have a standardised type of interface , more available
> > software applications , and you don't have the problem of converting
Mac
> > files/formats to PC files/formats when sharing files with other
people.
>
> The statistics of Macs being less than 10% and PC's being 80% of all
the
> computers in the world: is it based on 1. the total number of
computers
> still in active use, or 2, computer sales over a certain period?
>
> If it is the former case, it would be hard to count all of them, and
> besides, does firing up a 15-year-old computer every other month for a
> nostalgic game of Pong or whatever count as a computer still in use?
>
> If it is the latter case, then we have to consider the lifespan of the
> computer itself. It is a fact that Macs remain productive for much
longer
> than PCs, where the average lifespan is six years rather than four,
there
> are still plenty of 68k machines doing the 9-5; I am not sure if PC
users
> would want to soldier on with their 286 machines. Therefore, the
number if
> Macs still in use would be several times more than the 10% as stated.
>
I sort of like tend to stay away from platform debates , but I think
people's preferences are usually based on their experience when they
first start learning on a computer.
What I have been really trying to point out is that PCs are more common
than Macs and that the more common the product , the easier it is for
everything , from repairs/upgrades to porting files/applications to
another system.
If you , say want to send a file to a friend when you have a Mac ,
chances are that they will have problems opening it because most people
( 80% ) are using PCs than Macs.
Basically , the more common the product , the more cheaper it is to own
and operate as well as being part of a set of standardised criteria.
> Regarding format conversion, the original poster did not say that she
was
> going to be generating files to be opened on Windows machines. With a
copy
> of MacLink Plus Deluxe, she could very well be Microsoft-free and no
one
> would know the difference; and then she could also just use SimpleText
> generate text, even some simple word processing, and the resultant
file can
> be opened by anything. Mariner can also be used and it can open just
about
> any word processing file, and then save a file in any of two-dozen
formats.
> No, format conversion is not an issue for the Macintosh user, it is
more of
> a problem with the PC user and his complacency.
As with needing to convert file formats from Mac to PC ... etc and then
people say , Oh , but you can do it by using xxxx program , I find that
totally and absolutely stupid , WHY buy a Mac so you can run conversion
programs to convert Mac to PC when all you need to do is get a PC in
the first place !
> > 2) Upgrading , getting /replacing new hardware for Macs is more
> > expensive than for PCs because the Mac hardware is proprietary
> > hardware and Apple can charge what they want.
> > Hardware improvements for the Macs are a lot slower than the PCs
because
> > the Macs are made by only one company and they use proprietary
hardware
> > , while the PC hardware is obtained from many different
organisations
> > and developers who are consistently attempting to develop and
improve
> > their products.
>
> While I am sure that on the PC front the speed of hardware
improvements
> occur at a breakneck pace, this also shortens the life cycle of each
> generation of products. While there are countless hardware developers
> competing against each other, the final components they manufacture
still
> have to work with each other in the same box, and with Windows running
the
> show. While it is debatable whether upgrading Macs is more expensive
than
> PCs, it is not realistic to say that the Macintosh platform, being a
> single-sourced product, is less effective than that of a product from
many
> sources because Windows is indeed a single-sourced product as well.
For my
> money I would rather have the lot from the same manufacturer who would
> ensure everything works together, without the need for assemblers or
myself
> to orchestrate all the parts just to make them get on with each other.
I don't agree , the point I am trying to make is that you are dependant
on only ONE company to develop , produce and market their produce using
proprietary hardware , which means that the cost of the hardware will be
more expensive , sometimes in short supply and not be made to any
standards like the IEEE.
There is essentially nothing wrong with the Mac hardware , but what
happens if Apple go out of business , you are stuffed.
As than example , you only have to look at Intel and the RDRAM story ,
in which Intel tried to lock in all their P4s with the propietry RDRAM
hardware and made the RDRAM twice as expensive as the DDRAM because
RDRAM was made under license from only one company.
Everybody refused to accept the propietary RDRAM and started using AMD
until Intel changed their way.
Not only that , but the Mac can only run one type of OS , a PC can run
Windows.xx , DOS , DRDOS , OS/2 , Linux , Lindows and perhaps a few
others as well.
> Following your argument, the resolution I can draw just happens to be
quite
> the opposite.
With the two basic arguments I have made I wouldn't buy ANY produce if
it was :
1) Used by only 10% of people
2) Proprietary hardware , dependant on only one company.
--
Sandgroper
-----------------------------------
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"Vincent Vega" <vvega493@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vvega493-4E46E2.11500325062003@no-spam
> In article <3ef9e0ea$0$11170@no-spam>,
> "Sandgroper" <steveray@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > The short answer is
> >
> > 1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
> > other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more
popular
> > and common ,
>
> Just like McDonalds.
>
> > have a standardised type of interface ,
>
> You're kidding, right? The Mac will always win this one based on the
> fact that only one company sets the rules. You silly person.
>
Yeah , manufactured by only one company means that they can charge what
they want for their product instead of the general market prices.
They will also have their own set of standards that is out of whack with
the rest of the world.
> > more available
> > software applications ,
>
> Just how many word processers does one need, exactly?
It's all about the CHOICE of what applications/games you can run on your
system , not how many you can run at one time.
From where I live , every computer shop and software store sells 90% PC
based software and only 10% Mac software.
--
Sandgroper
-----------------------------------
Remove KNICKERS to Email
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Sandgroper wrote:
> It's all about the CHOICE of what applications/games you can run on your
> system , not how many you can run at one time.
> From where I live , every computer shop and software store sells 90% PC
> based software and only 10% Mac software.
I shop for software on the internet. What does that do to statistics?
Dale
Sandgroper wrote:
> There is essentially nothing wrong with the Mac hardware , but what
> happens if Apple go out of business , you are stuffed.
Hardly. If Apple die, their computers don't just disappear - you can
still use them. You can then plan on moving your data across when
and if you need to. In the mean time, many people get to play with
computers that they enjoy.
"Oh dear, BMW might go out of business. Better buy a crappy car
instead, -just in case- ".
dale
Sandgroper wrote:
> Not only that , but the Mac can only run one type of OS , a PC can run
> Windows.xx , DOS , DRDOS , OS/2 , Linux , Lindows and perhaps a few
> others as well.
Not true - you can run Linux on a Mac (currently you have to if you
want to do certain things like serious wireless hacking).
> With the two basic arguments I have made I wouldn't buy ANY produce if
> it was :
>
> 1) Used by only 10% of people
> 2) Proprietary hardware , dependant on only one company.
The first point is rather silly - I am not a sheep and do not
make decisions just based on "well everyone else is doing it".
Proprietry hardware certainly has a downside, but then so does
proprietry software, which would rule out any Microsoft OS as
well as OS X (but not Darwin).
I bought my first computer about a month ago (always used work
machines before). If I had been getting a desktop machine I
probably would have gone for x86 hardware and installed Debian.
For a laptop things tend not to be quite so simple and I wanted
something that worked out of the box. I spent about six months
considering options and eventually went for an iBook. No regrets
so far.
Watt <watt@no-spam> wrote:
>Where did you hear that? AFAIK the G5 does not boot OS 9. On the other
>hand, all the G4 towers being sold until the G5s ship do boot OS 9.
>Perhaps that's what you're thinking of?
I may have misunderstood something I read somewhere when those G5s
were announced. If so, my bad...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins mailto:hbelkins@no-spam or mailto:HBE1@no-spam
http://www.millenniumhwy.net
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins
"There's no doubt he's the best race driver in the world."
--Dale Jarrett, on Dale Earnhardt (RIP 2/18/01)
I'm for Waltrip, Kentucky and whoever's playing North Carolina or Tennessee
To reply, you gotta do what NASCAR won't -- remove the restrictor plates!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you also aware that Apple nearly went out of business a few years
ago - reason they survived - Bill Gates gave them the needed cash
injection. Check it out. Microsoft write WINDOWS products for the MAC.
PC is an open system hardware device that came about through IBM
because people objected to being forced into a propriety hardware
platform.
The only reason Apple computers now support industry and world
standards is because market pressure from PC world forced them to.
Apple even had it own propriety network - Apple Talk and if you didn't
mind a network that ran like and performed like a dog it was great.
I have supported both machines in a business environment - Apple
machines were more reliable as stand alone devices but were very
labour intensive as network devices and in using anything but an Apple
compatible peripheral. Apple mandated that everything for there
machines comply to their own propriety standards and charged companies
large amounts for licences to produce Apple compatible devices.
So believe it or not we have Apple to thank for the IBM compatible PC
which was built to open standards and parts could be manufactured by
everyone thereby making them cheaper and as a result bought by
millions. Today's PCs can do anything an Apple can do and in majority
of cases better - mind you Apple does catch up as they see the
improvements made in PC world and adapt their machine to them - of
course you have to buy a complete new package to get them.
A PC can run numerous OS because it is an open hardware machine. Don't
get Windows operating system confused with PC hardware. Although I can
understand how Apple users have a problem distinguishing between
hardware and OS as they have no choice as they have to used supplied
OS on their machine. Most Apple users say this is a plus for their
system - depends an how free you want to be to decide on how you use
your machine. I can unplug the hard drive ( mounted in a cradle on
front of PC) and plug in new one and have changed my OS - Windows XP,
Windows 98, Linux, BeOS, BSD - try that with your MAC with out an
emulator. It just goes to show the development that has gone into
those OS as the majority (Windows and Linux in particular) can
recognise and load drivers for all the internal hardware and connected
peripherals.
I could continue but no matter how much is said it is impossible to
overcome fanaticism.
cheers
Gazza
Julie - I tried to end this but??
No one has explained to me why I would need a BMW to get me from point
A to B at great expense when I can get there just as easy in a Corolla
at have the cost. Must be a STATUS thing.
"julie simpson" <js@no-spam> wrote in message
news:js-8C3D86.09033127062003@no-spam
In article <3efadf24$0$20728@no-spam>,
"Sandgroper" <steveray@no-spam> wrote:
> With the two basic arguments I have made I wouldn't buy ANY produce
if
> it was :
>
> 1) Used by only 10% of people
> 2) Proprietary hardware , dependant on only one company.
So I guess a Porsche is out of the question, then? ;)
J.
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Gazza Ozzie wrote:
> Are you also aware that Apple nearly went out of business a few years
> ago - reason they survived - Bill Gates gave them the needed cash
> injection. Check it out. Microsoft write WINDOWS products for the MAC.
This is wrong, and your post gets worse from there. Apple had billions
in cash at the time, and Microsoft "gave them" $150 million.
Why? Well, no one is exactly sure. It was some part of the five year
deal struck between the companies that recently expired. Perhaps it was
a pay off to prevent Apple from suing Microsoft for copying interface
design and features. Perhaps it was a payment for making Internet
Explorer the default browser. Perhaps it was a little of both, or
something else entirely -- after all, Microsoft still hadn't delievered
TrueImage.
About the only thing we know is that Apple did not need a cash injection
at the time.
>
> 1. Open up computer (pull up latch on side then let it hinge downwards, no
tool
> needed)
>
> 2. Unclip processor heatsink.
>
> 3. Release ZIF socket latching lever.
>
> 4. Drop in new processor (no pressure required: hence Zero Insertion
Force).
>
> 5. Click ZIF socket latching lever back into position.
>
> 6. Replace heatsink.
>
> 7. Close computer: push "drawbridge" door until it clicks.
>
> 8. Drink your coffee.
And the cost ? Horendous.
woodsie <none@no-spam> wrote:
> In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
>
> >Basically I want to
> >turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
> >
>
> in that case, REALLY get a mac !
I'd agree I'm over 50 and I was a computer novice when I bought my first
Mac and I found it very easy to use.I'm onto my 3rd Mac and wouldn't
consider anything else.
There is plenty of help to be found on the net if you should run into
any trouble and you will find the Mac newsgroups in general to be
friendly to newbies.
--
annieb
anniebish@no-spam
> And the cost ? Horendous.
>
>
Doesn't matter. Your ridiculous claim of impossible to do was defeated.
It's horrendous by the way.
Missed the point - I can buy a PC without having to buy the OS.
"Damian" <Damo@no-spam> wrote in message
news:270620031941479098%Damo@no-spam
In article <uSLKa.141$eR2.1328@no-spam>, Gazza
Ozzie
<gazzaozzie@no-spam> wrote:
Snip>
>
> A PC can run numerous OS because it is an open hardware machine.
Don't
> get Windows operating system confused with PC hardware. Although I
can
> understand how Apple users have a problem distinguishing between
> hardware and OS as they have no choice as they have to used supplied
> OS on their machine. Most Apple users say this is a plus for their
> system - depends an how free you want to be to decide on how you use
> your machine. I can unplug the hard drive ( mounted in a cradle on
> front of PC) and plug in new one and have changed my OS - Windows
XP,
> Windows 98, Linux, BeOS, BSD - try that with your MAC with out an
> emulator. It just goes to show the development that has gone into
> those OS as the majority (Windows and Linux in particular) can
> recognise and load drivers for all the internal hardware and
connected
> peripherals.
Umm are you telling me that the Mac OS in embeded in in machine
somewhere and not on the hard drive????
Because i have just changed the hard drive in one of my machines 4
times and had a different OS every time.(checking the condition of the
drives)
>
> I could continue but no matter how much is said it is impossible to
> overcome fanaticism.
<Snip
Or ignorance
Why do people think they Know everything
Damian
>
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"draino" <draino@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3EFBEE42.7060407@no-spam
>
> > I reckon Porsches are crap and overrated , if I had the money to buy
an
> > expensive car , it would be a BMW or a Mercedes.
>
> You need to state your reason for rating Porsches as crap. Envy can be
> all consuming. While I am a BMW and Merc fan, there are some very
> ordinary Bimmers and Mercs, but no ordinary Porsches. They are all
superb.
I just don't like them , period , and I especially hate the souped up
VW engine.
--
Sandgroper
-----------------------------------
Remove KNICKERS to Email
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On 6/26/03 7:22 AM, in article
3efae56b$0$26635$afc38c87@no-spam "Miro" <miro01@no-spam>
wrote:
> Anyone can upgrade a Mac? Ok how do you change the CPU on a G4 600 to a G4
> 800 ?
Very simple. You go to an appropriate online vendor and buy a processor
upgrade for your machine made by one of three different companies. You pull
the latch on the side of your tower, and the side lays flat on your desk,
exposing the motherboard. Remove the heat sink clip, pull the processor,
plug in the new processor, and off you go.
> How do you upgrade from single to dual processor ?
You order a dual processor upgrade from the same companies instead of a
single processor upgrade. Incidentally, this is something you can only do
on a Mac. I don't know if a single Intel or AMD system that can be turned
into a dual processor machine after the fact if it didn't already begin life
with a pair of Sockets on the motherboard.
> We know there is only one
> motherboard design for each current generation - how do I get one to build
> into a custom box ?
If you really want to build a custom box, you can transplant the motherboard
into an ATX case and do whatever you want with it.
> You have been spoon fed for so long you forget what choice is. The only
> upgrade apple sells for a Mac is a new Mac. Ram and hard disk dont count -
Just because Apple doesn't sell a lot of aftermarket Mac upgrades doesn't
mean that they aren't out there. There are dozens of companies selling
everything from processor upgrades to PCI RAID hard disk controller cards.
On 6/26/03 11:12 PM, in article
3efbc448$0$26634$afc38c87@no-spam "Miro" <miro01@no-spam>
wrote:
> And the cost ? Horendous.
A processor upgrade is a fraction of the cost of a new Mac - or good
AMD/Intel hardware (and eTowers don't get put in that category).
On 6/27/03 4:41 AM, in article 270620031941479098%Damo@no-spam
"Damian" <Damo@no-spam> wrote:
> Or ignorance
>
> Why do people think they Know everything
>
>
> Damian
I think it's probably because threads like this degenerate into debates
between professionals who use their Macs productively and high school kids
who overclock their dedicated Windows gaming machines to run Unreal
Tournament and judge platforms from that perspective.
Most Windows professionals who are actually out there working know what sort
of headaches come along with Windows vs. Macs, and are honest enough to
admit them.
In article <1fx675f.jzpdp11g17ppeN%anniebish@no-spam>,
anniebish@no-spam (ann bishop) wrote:
>woodsie <none@no-spam> wrote:
>
>> In article <3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>, ryako@no-spam wrote:
>> >Basically I want to
>> >turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
>> >
>> in that case, REALLY get a mac !
>
>I'd agree I'm over 50 and I was a computer novice when I bought my first
>Mac and I found it very easy to use.I'm onto my 3rd Mac and wouldn't
>consider anything else.
G'day Annie,
I could say exactly the same things, with two exceptions:
1. I'm rather older, and
2. I'm on my 5th PC.
>There is plenty of help to be found on the net if you should run into
>any trouble and you will find the Mac newsgroups in general to be
>friendly to newbies.
As I predicted. This discussion has become a religious war, and
probably of very little benefit to ryako@no-spam
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerkDELETE@no-spam
Sandgroper wrote:
> "Samuel Tang" <samueltang@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3EF9ECD6.D6006BD5@no-spam
>
>>Hi Sandgroper,
>>
>>I tend to stay away from "platform debates" (to put it mildly), but I
>
> am
>
>>interested in your statements:
>>
>>Sandgroper wrote:
>>
>>(snipped)
>>
>>
>>>The short answer is
>>>
>>>1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
>>>other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more
>>
> popular
>
>>>and common , have a standardised type of interface , more available
>>>software applications , and you don't have the problem of converting
>>
> Mac
>
>>>files/formats to PC files/formats when sharing files with other
>>
> people.
>
>>The statistics of Macs being less than 10% and PC's being 80% of all
>
> the
>
>>computers in the world: is it based on 1. the total number of
>
> computers
>
>>still in active use, or 2, computer sales over a certain period?
>>
>>If it is the former case, it would be hard to count all of them, and
>>besides, does firing up a 15-year-old computer every other month for a
>>nostalgic game of Pong or whatever count as a computer still in use?
>>
>>If it is the latter case, then we have to consider the lifespan of the
>>computer itself. It is a fact that Macs remain productive for much
>
> longer
>
>>than PCs, where the average lifespan is six years rather than four,
>
> there
>
>>are still plenty of 68k machines doing the 9-5; I am not sure if PC
>
> users
>
>>would want to soldier on with their 286 machines. Therefore, the
>
> number if
>
>>Macs still in use would be several times more than the 10% as stated.
>>
>
>
> I sort of like tend to stay away from platform debates , but I think
> people's preferences are usually based on their experience when they
> first start learning on a computer.
>
> What I have been really trying to point out is that PCs are more common
> than Macs and that the more common the product , the easier it is for
> everything , from repairs/upgrades to porting files/applications to
> another system.
>
> If you , say want to send a file to a friend when you have a Mac ,
> chances are that they will have problems opening it because most people
> ( 80% ) are using PCs than Macs.
> Basically , the more common the product , the more cheaper it is to own
> and operate as well as being part of a set of standardised criteria.
>
>
>>Regarding format conversion, the original poster did not say that she
>
> was
>
>>going to be generating files to be opened on Windows machines. With a
>
> copy
>
>>of MacLink Plus Deluxe, she could very well be Microsoft-free and no
>
> one
>
>>would know the difference; and then she could also just use SimpleText
>>generate text, even some simple word processing, and the resultant
>
> file can
>
>>be opened by anything. Mariner can also be used and it can open just
>
> about
>
>>any word processing file, and then save a file in any of two-dozen
>
> formats.
>
>>No, format conversion is not an issue for the Macintosh user, it is
>
> more of
>
>>a problem with the PC user and his complacency.
>
>
> As with needing to convert file formats from Mac to PC ... etc and then
> people say , Oh , but you can do it by using xxxx program , I find that
> totally and absolutely stupid , WHY buy a Mac so you can run conversion
> programs to convert Mac to PC when all you need to do is get a PC in
> the first place !
>
>
>>>2) Upgrading , getting /replacing new hardware for Macs is more
>>>expensive than for PCs because the Mac hardware is proprietary
>>>hardware and Apple can charge what they want.
>>>Hardware improvements for the Macs are a lot slower than the PCs
>>
> because
>
>>>the Macs are made by only one company and they use proprietary
>>
> hardware
>
>>>, while the PC hardware is obtained from many different
>>
> organisations
>
>>>and developers who are consistently attempting to develop and
>>
> improve
>
>>>their products.
>>
>>While I am sure that on the PC front the speed of hardware
>
> improvements
>
>>occur at a breakneck pace, this also shortens the life cycle of each
>>generation of products. While there are countless hardware developers
>>competing against each other, the final components they manufacture
>
> still
>
>>have to work with each other in the same box, and with Windows running
>
> the
>
>>show. While it is debatable whether upgrading Macs is more expensive
>
> than
>
>>PCs, it is not realistic to say that the Macintosh platform, being a
>>single-sourced product, is less effective than that of a product from
>
> many
>
>>sources because Windows is indeed a single-sourced product as well.
>
> For my
>
>>money I would rather have the lot from the same manufacturer who would
>>ensure everything works together, without the need for assemblers or
>
> myself
>
>>to orchestrate all the parts just to make them get on with each other.
>
>
> I don't agree , the point I am trying to make is that you are dependant
> on only ONE company to develop , produce and market their produce using
> proprietary hardware , which means that the cost of the hardware will be
> more expensive , sometimes in short supply and not be made to any
> standards like the IEEE.
>
> There is essentially nothing wrong with the Mac hardware , but what
> happens if Apple go out of business , you are stuffed.
>
> As than example , you only have to look at Intel and the RDRAM story ,
> in which Intel tried to lock in all their P4s with the propietry RDRAM
> hardware and made the RDRAM twice as expensive as the DDRAM because
> RDRAM was made under license from only one company.
> Everybody refused to accept the propietary RDRAM and started using AMD
> until Intel changed their way.
>
> Not only that , but the Mac can only run one type of OS , a PC can run
> Windows.xx , DOS , DRDOS , OS/2 , Linux , Lindows and perhaps a few
> others as well.
>
>
>>Following your argument, the resolution I can draw just happens to be
>
> quite
>
>>the opposite.
>
>
> With the two basic arguments I have made I wouldn't buy ANY produce if
> it was :
>
> 1) Used by only 10% of people
> 2) Proprietary hardware , dependant on only one company.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sandgroper
> -----------------------------------
> Remove KNICKERS to Email
> steveray@no-spam
>
>
>
>
>
>
You can run Linux on MAC for informational reasons.
I hope you knew this.
I am also very compatible with Mac using *unix or Linux.
More so than Using a PC with Windows
I think *windows is the odd one out here but is cassified as an
economical OS rather than a Professional OS
In article <BB2196F9.8335%applemac_g4@no-spam>,
Applemac_G4 <applemac_g4@no-spam> wrote:
> I think it's probably because threads like this degenerate into debates
> between professionals who use their Macs productively and high school kids
> who overclock their dedicated Windows gaming machines to run Unreal
> Tournament and judge platforms from that perspective.
>
> Most Windows professionals who are actually out there working know what sort
> of headaches come along with Windows vs. Macs, and are honest enough to
> admit them.
Whoa! Let's not bring logic and reason into this! :)
Steve Ball wrote:
> julie simpson said:
>
>
>>In article <3efadf24$0$20728@no-spam>,
>>"Sandgroper" <steveray@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>With the two basic arguments I have made I wouldn't buy ANY produce if
>>>it was :
>>>
>>>1) Used by only 10% of people
>>>2) Proprietary hardware , dependant on only one company.
>>
>>So I guess a Porsche is out of the question, then? ;)
>
>
> Brilliant!
>
> 'Thinking Different" leads down the road to Macs and Porsches etc...
> Thinking like the other 90% leads to PCs and Commodores etc...
>
> Steve = : ^ )
lol
You really can't imagine how much fun I have had with this so called
thread of "unbiased opinions". Pity you didn't catch on earlier in the
piece when I made certain statements but I really do think it is time
for this thread to end.
ask Rod Speed how I enjoy fishing - given the right bait.
cheers
Gazza (the fisherman)
"Andy Mulhearn" <unxmully@no-spam> wrote in message
news:20030627213604733+0100@no-spam
In <QvUKa.622$eR2.6808@no-spam> Gazza Ozzie wrote:
> Missed the point - I can buy a PC without having to buy the OS.
>
You can? How easy is it now?
Andy
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 18/06/2003
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:18:14 GMT, "Gazza Ozzie"
<gazzaozzie@no-spam> wrote:
>You really can't imagine how much fun I have had with this so called
>thread of "unbiased opinions". Pity you didn't catch on earlier in the
>piece when I made certain statements but I really do think it is time
>for this thread to end.
>
>ask Rod Speed how I enjoy fishing - given the right bait.
>
>cheers
>Gazza (the fisherman)
>
>
>
>"Andy Mulhearn" <unxmully@no-spam> wrote in message
>news:20030627213604733+0100@no-spam
>In <QvUKa.622$eR2.6808@no-spam> Gazza Ozzie wrote:
>> Missed the point - I can buy a PC without having to buy the OS.
>>
>
>You can? How easy is it now?
really easy...bought a new, incomplete (tower only), system a few
months back.....had to beg them to install a pirate Windows 98 edition
and give me a stolen code number so it would work.
Came as a suprise to me....all of my previous buys came with the
latest Windows version installed. But they were all full systems.
But, then, I was being cheap. Poverty does that.
brianWE
If you want to win an argument, it is best to
stick to the truth.
Or provable untruths.
In article <1fx4d22.di1ccjk7ka39N%see.signature@no-spam>,
see.signature@no-spam (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
> Sting <mail@no-spam> wrote:
>
> In general I have no quarrel with your decision, except:
>
> > And if I want to do
> > some wireless interetting, I don't have to spend hundreds of Euro's for a
> > broadcaster (Airport),
>
> Wireless on an Apple is bog standard. You can buy any wireless router
> you want; the Apple one is just a little easier to configure but not by
> a lot.
>
> (Say, what's the situation in the Netherlands these days? If I tote a
> laptop with me through Amsterdam, where can I access the internet? How
> are smaller towns?)
for an update on the current situation visit: http//www.hubhop.com
;-)
Lourens
ryako@no-spam wrote in message news:<3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>...
> So I am finding it hard to decide between the two. Basically I will be
> using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel stuff), Internet
> and Photoshop (not much PS though, mainly the other 2). I don't know a
> HUGE amount about computers and wouldn't know how to change
> configuration settings if my life depended on it. Basically I want to
> turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off without fiddling around.
> PS. A notebook is what I am after
Hi ryako, I've owned PCs since the days of CP/M (pre-DOS) and I will
be migrating to a Mac once the G5s start shipping. I've been working
closely with a friend on a project where he is using a G4, and I'm on
a PC, and I'm totally impressed: not only is the G4 great and easy to
use, but now with OS-X there's all the power of Unix (not that you
would likely care about that).
One thing the PC guys won't tell you about is resale value: compare a
2 year old Mac on eBay to the cost of an equivalent PC on eBay. My
Athlon 1.2GHz might fetch me $300 (at most). My friend's 400MHz G4
might get closer to $500.
Good luck, whatever you do.
"Jon Wiest" <jonwiest@no-spam> wrote in message
news:116bfea2.0307020918.44386a6b@no-spam
> One thing the PC guys won't tell you about is resale value: compare a
> 2 year old Mac on eBay to the cost of an equivalent PC on eBay. My
> Athlon 1.2GHz might fetch me $300 (at most). My friend's 400MHz G4
> might get closer to $500.
So he's actually lost more than you in depreciation. (In actual dollars or
even percentage terms it seems)
Given the low value of any PC (inc. Mac) after a couple of years, there is a
simple rule. The more you pay in the first place, the higher the
depreciation.
Trevor.
In article <1056579279.148049@no-spam>, Tony Turner
<tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
> I hate the way most versions of windows crash inexplicably, unpredictably
> and unapologetically. I hate being at the mercy of a monolith such as
> microsoft.
Amen.
> So why do we have four Intel machines in the house and not one
> Mac? The application that I use in making my living is written for windows
> and will never be available for the Mac. Most scientific applications that
> we use are written for windows or Linux or DOS. Not for the Mac and probably
> not ever.
And which application is that?
I am a scientist, used Macs all my life, and have all the apps I need.
Invariably, those apps run better on Mac than Windows.
> It is easy for us to swap hard disks between machines, and I am
> led to believe it is not easy with a Mac.
You are being misled.
> I am surrounded by dozens of
> windows users who might help me out of a problem at some stage, and I know
> only one Mac user.
Me too. But I have found out that NO windows user REALLY knows how
windows work. They are resigned to live with Windows' problems. Every
time I have a really tough Windows problem, I find I am alone.
> So, much as I am impressed by all I hear about Macs, they
> are not for me and probably never will be.
Maybe if you would try to break out of your prejudices and actually try
using a Mac, you would see the light.
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply
Tony Turner wrote:
> "germ" <germinator@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:230720032148340639%germinator@no-spam
> : In article <1056579279.148049@no-spam>, Tony Turner
> : <tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
> :
> :
> : > I hate the way most versions of windows crash inexplicably,
> unpredictably
> : > and unapologetically. I hate being at the mercy of a monolith such as
> : > microsoft.
> :
> : Amen.
> :
> : > So why do we have four Intel machines in the house and not one
> : > Mac? The application that I use in making my living is written for
> windows
> : > and will never be available for the Mac. Most scientific applications
> that
> : > we use are written for windows or Linux or DOS. Not for the Mac and
> probably
> : > not ever.
> :
> : And which application is that?
> : I am a scientist, used Macs all my life, and have all the apps I need.
> : Invariably, those apps run better on Mac than Windows.
>
> No doubt. But I have spoken to the authors of some of the apps we use, and
> they tell me that they will not be written for the Mac.
> :
> : > It is easy for us to swap hard disks between machines, and I am
> : > led to believe it is not easy with a Mac.
> :
> : You are being misled.
>
> Perhaps so. I just can't see the slot in the Mac machine where you slide a
> hard disk in and out. It may be at the back of the box somewhere.
>
> : > I am surrounded by dozens of
> : > windows users who might help me out of a problem at some stage, and I
> know
> : > only one Mac user.
> :
> : Me too. But I have found out that NO windows user REALLY knows how
> : windows work. They are resigned to live with Windows' problems. Every
> : time I have a really tough Windows problem, I find I am alone.
> :
> :
> : > So, much as I am impressed by all I hear about Macs, they
> : > are not for me and probably never will be.
> :
> :
> : Maybe if you would try to break out of your prejudices and actually try
> : using a Mac, you would see the light.
>
> You lose me a bit when you mention prejudices. What I wrote was in answer to
> a request for an unbiased opinion and the thrust of my answer was that for
> the person asking the question, it probably didn't matter much. For my part,
> far from being prejudiced in favour of windows I merely acknowledge that
> they have me by the gonads. Also, for my part, my not at all typical part,
> lots of research suggests MY best way of loosening that grip a little is via
> Linux.
>
> And now for a spate of replies from teenagers who can't spell telling me it
> isn't. Followed by those telling them that it is.
> : germ Remove "nospam" to reply
>
>
It is very easy to live without windows no matter what application you
use.If it has been stanardised it is still no reason to be gonarded by it.
Its all about your choice
I have not used *windows in 6 months once
Last time was at a governemnt online center where I gave some free
computer configuration support(Fuck Knows why the Governemnt never did
shit for me,maybee it was satisfaction that the the whole of fucking
area is dumb as shit)
From where I sit now(I have always had Linux,BSD fileservers but
normally only windows desktops) I would imagine it would be very sweet
and supported moving to a Mac,with applications Like Dreamweaver etc and
mayjor hardware support and VIDEO Hardware or mulitmedia
Hardware(available with Linux however Linux driver writers for this type
of stuff never by cheap shit hardware for some reason so bying a TX-RX
Satellite Modem can be a very singled choice and fucking expensive).
However I choose my surroundings and my life,it certainly dose not
choose me,so I certainly would never choose a path that involved YOU
MUST USE OFFICE XP or YOU MUST FILE DOCUMENTS ALWAYS IN EXCEL,I would
simply tell anyone to get fucked who based anything arround that sort of
shit such as many Universities ect no matter how much cash it was going
to make me.
lol
ryako@no-spam wrote in message news:<3EF938FF.1010506@no-spam>...
> I don't want to start a Mac vs PC war here or anything but I need to
Here's my opinion on this subject.
I use both. My experience: both will do what you want and perform well
for any general use (word processing, Internet, office applications,
ripping music, watching DVDs, etc.), I don't think anyone could
disagree with that.
Macs are disadvantaged as far as games are concerned (less titles
available). Portable Macs are very,very nice (aesthetically) and this
has to be factored in your decison! They are a bit more expensive than
Windows notebooks, and the choice is limited (5 models on sale). MacOS
is very pleasant to use, and not that different from Windows XP. I
have an iBook for digital photo management and music.
There are many, many, many different types of Windows portable
computers, and at very different prices too. This makes
generalisations rather pointless. My main computer (the one I work
with, I am a translator) is an IBM Thinkpad X30, very small and light
and excellent keyboard. It is expensive and underpowered, but it also
is the best computer *for me*. Windows XP works very well too, I for
one am happy with it.
If you have to run special software (scientific, engineering, graphic,
whatever) make sure that it runs on the platform you choose. What
people around you use is also something to consider! Choosing a
platform different than the one your family or colleagues use would
not be an enormous obstacle, but still a source of minor nuisance.
I've said.
farid
In article <1059032400.412681@no-spam>, Tony Turner
<tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
> :
> : And which application is that?
> : I am a scientist, used Macs all my life, and have all the apps I need.
> : Invariably, those apps run better on Mac than Windows.
>
> No doubt. But I have spoken to the authors of some of the apps we use, and
> they tell me that they will not be written for the Mac.
In that case, would it be doable for you to switch to an app that is
available for Mac?
> :
> : > It is easy for us to swap hard disks between machines, and I am
> : > led to believe it is not easy with a Mac.
> :
> : You are being misled.
>
> Perhaps so. I just can't see the slot in the Mac machine where you slide a
> hard disk in and out. It may be at the back of the box somewhere.
Well, I can't see that slot on PCs either..... Are you referring to
some sort of custom removable IDE enclosure? AFAIK, no PC comes
standard with those.
>
> You lose me a bit when you mention prejudices. What I wrote was in answer to
> a request for an unbiased opinion and the thrust of my answer was that for
> the person asking the question, it probably didn't matter much. For my part,
> far from being prejudiced in favour of windows I merely acknowledge that
> they have me by the gonads. Also, for my part, my not at all typical part,
> lots of research suggests MY best way of loosening that grip a little is via
> Linux.
Sorry for implying you were prejudiced. It was my attempt to make you
break out of Windows, which you seem reluctant to do (maybe for good
reasons, or reasons that you think are good).
Linux is a possibility, but in my experience it is still not there. I
tried installing it on a PC with unsupported graphic card, and it was a
nigthmare. Also, it's lacking a serious and viable deskop environment,
IMHO.
Right now, I am set up with OS X and I love it. There's no other OS
that comes close IMHO.
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply
In article <270720031740060621%in@no-spam>,
plasmodium <in@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > But I am not an enthusiast for any operating system. I am a pragmatist. I
> > am certainly not about to proselytise anyone.
> > --------------------------
> > :
> > : --
> > : germ Remove "nospam" to reply
> >
> >
> proselytise! cool - I have just added another word to my vocab, now to
> try and use it in conversation............
>
> you had me reaching for the dictionary!
Illiteracy! It's not just for the rearded anymore!
--
Enough <enough@no-spam>
In article <JoXUa.22826$BB6.714097@no-spam>,
Enough <enough@no-spam> wrote:
> In article <anon-245E7B.13145327072003@no-spam>,
> RubyTuesday <anon@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > In article <lmPUa.21888$BB6.636520@no-spam>,
> > Enough <enough@no-spam> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <270720031740060621%in@no-spam>,
> > > plasmodium <in@no-spam> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > But I am not an enthusiast for any operating system. I am a
> > > > > pragmatist. I
> > > > > am certainly not about to proselytise anyone.
> > > > > --------------------------
> > > > > :
> > > > > : --
> > > > > : germ Remove "nospam" to reply
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > proselytise! cool - I have just added another word to my vocab, now to
> > > > try and use it in conversation............
> > > >
> > > > you had me reaching for the dictionary!
> > >
> > > Illiteracy! It's not just for the rearded anymore!
> >
> > Rearded? Another new word to look up.
> >
> > Ruby
>
> GAWD! Can fishing be ANY easier!
Not with you around, thank you very much.
Ruby
In article <JoXUa.22826$BB6.714097@no-spam>, Enough <enough@no-spam> wrote:
> In article <anon-245E7B.13145327072003@no-spam>,
> RubyTuesday <anon@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > In article <lmPUa.21888$BB6.636520@no-spam>,
> > Enough <enough@no-spam> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <270720031740060621%in@no-spam>,
> > > plasmodium <in@no-spam> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > But I am not an enthusiast for any operating system. I am a
> > > > > pragmatist. I
> > > > > am certainly not about to proselytise anyone.
> > > > > --------------------------
> > > > > :
> > > > > : --
> > > > > : germ Remove "nospam" to reply
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > proselytise! cool - I have just added another word to my vocab, now to
> > > > try and use it in conversation............
> > > >
> > > > you had me reaching for the dictionary!
> > >
> > > Illiteracy! It's not just for the rearded anymore!
> >
> > Rearded? Another new word to look up.
> >
> > Ruby
>
> GAWD! Can fishing be ANY easier!
LOL. Come on, admit it was a simple typo that anyone with a 1st grade
education could correct upon reading :)
In article <1059273781.157802@no-spam>, Tony Turner
<tonyt@no-spam> wrote:
> : >
> : > Perhaps so. I just can't see the slot in the Mac machine where you
> slide a
> : > hard disk in and out. It may be at the back of the box somewhere.
> :
> : Well, I can't see that slot on PCs either..... Are you referring to
> : some sort of custom removable IDE enclosure? AFAIK, no PC comes
> : standard with those.
>
> $30 from Jaycar.
OK, I don't understand the need for removable IDE drives, with their
prices now so low. From the way most Powermacs are built, it is
difficult to fit such an enclosure. It could probably be done on the
latest MDD towers (which have space for two optical drives). If you
really need/want to be set up that way, I guess you are better off with
a PC. You probably represent less than 0.01% of computer users. It
shouldn't be too difficult to give this up.
> It would cost me, what, a couple of thousand to give the Mac a try and I
> already know that whatever I do it is not the complete answer.
For many of us, it is!
> There are
> some things, as I mentioned, that only windows or DOS will handle. For those
> I will always need some kind of windows machine.
Virtual PC on my dual 1.25 G4 works dandy.
BTW, you can now get refurbished G4 (FW800) for $1600 at the Apple
store (1 year warranty). With 4 HD bays and two optical drive bays
these are sweet.
> For all the other things
> that I do regularly, my thirty dollar, four CD, Mandrake 9.1 Linux, with
> its two GUIs is adequate. It has come a long way in the last year.
Sure. It may be OK for you. Many of us just love Mac OS X interface and
polish and the power of UNIX.
> The
> desktop owes much to Apple (as does windows of course) and most of Unix's
> command-line structure is now rendered unnecessary. It comes with everything
> you would expect, plus StarOffice, and a C++ which between them represent
> over a thousand dollars that wondersoft will never see from me. Plus a
> gazillion other free things that I will never need, understand, or know
> about.
> I use one box with two different slide-in hard drives, one for win and the
> other for Linux. I feel that the added complication of dual-partitioned
> single drive is best avoided. (when a drive fails, I lose only one OS)
...and all your data. I am not so sure this is the best solution.
I have 3 HDs in my G4, with a bootable install of OS X in a separate
partition on the second one as well (with DiskWarrior). My home
directory is automatically backed up each night by a cron job on the
second HD. The third HD is used for Virtual PC (Win2k installation
there).
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply
In article <270720032157206966%germinator@no-spam>,
germinator@no-spam wrote:
> Virtual PC on my dual 1.25 G4 works dandy.
> BTW, you can now get refurbished G4 (FW800) for $1600 at the Apple
> store (1 year warranty). With 4 HD bays and two optical drive bays
> these are sweet.
>
What sort of speed does VPC run on your G4? What speed PC have you found
it to run like?
Chris
This is something I hear homosexuals suffer from.
"RubyTuesday" <anon@no-spam> wrote in message
news:anon-245E7B.13145327072003@no-spam
>
> Rearded? Another new word to look up.
>
> Ruby
"Byron Forbes" <hosh111@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f254172$1@no-spam
: This is something I hear homosexuals suffer from.
:
Oh interesting. It stands for "redneck arsehole". How ironic.
In article <3f253f9b$1@no-spam>, -=[VampiressX]=- <vampiress@no-spam> wrote:
> "Byron Forbes" <hosh111@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3f254172$1@no-spam
> : This is something I hear homosexuals suffer from.
> :
>
> Oh interesting. It stands for "redneck arsehole". How ironic.
Actually, I think it stands for "red arsehole" :)
"Jason" <matreya_nospam@no-spam> wrote in message
news:290720030156234285%matreya_nospam@no-spam
> In article <3f253f9b$1@no-spam>, -=[VampiressX]=-
<vampiress@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > "Byron Forbes" <hosh111@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:3f254172$1@no-spam
> > : This is something I hear homosexuals suffer from.
> > :
> >
> > Oh interesting. It stands for "redneck arsehole". How ironic.
>
> Actually, I think it stands for "red arsehole" :)
LOL
In article <metalsta-2807032203290001@no-spam>, Chris
Standring <metalsta@no-spam> wrote:
> In article <270720032157206966%germinator@no-spam>,
> germinator@no-spam wrote:
>
>
> > Virtual PC on my dual 1.25 G4 works dandy.
> > BTW, you can now get refurbished G4 (FW800) for $1600 at the Apple
> > store (1 year warranty). With 4 HD bays and two optical drive bays
> > these are sweet.
> >
>
> What sort of speed does VPC run on your G4? What speed PC have you found
> it to run like?
It is more than just usable. But keep in mind that the dual 1.25 GHz
with 768 MB of memory is the second most-powerful PowerMac around.
Actually, I was pleasantly surprised by how well this machine performs
(and how well it is built!).
Some tips:
- recent versions of Windows (win2k and XP) supposedly run faster than
NT or 95 or 98
- I give VirtualPC 256 MB or RAM
- turn off the Windows eye-candy
I cannot say to which PC speed t