"Ian McFadyen" <imcfadyen@no-spam> wrote in message news:<8wuJa.53$re7.3375@no-spam>...
> "Nicholas Steel" <nsteel@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:e5cbdf32.0306220220.4e43d794@no-spam
> > In September 1939 the Germans invaded Poland whilst the USSR took the
> > other half. Britain and France declared war on Germany but not the
> > USSR.
> >
> > The next act of aggression to occur was in December 1939 when the USSR
> > invaded Finland. Still no one declared war on the USSR.
> >
> > Throughout the war Germany never declared war on Britain.Britain was
> > also the first to bomb Germany, not the other way around. Germany also
> > showed much restraint when the corner British forces at Dunkirk. They
> > allowed them to get away.
> > There is a scanned document doing the rounds on the internet -
> > consisting of a seven point plan to provoke Japan into war. It worked.
> >
> > Mysteriously enough Germany declared war on America.Though America was
> > attacked by Japan they put the majority of their effort into defeating
> > Germany.The pacific war was second fiddle to the European war.
> >
> >
> > By the cessation of hostilities in September 1945, half of Europe was
> > under the yoke of the USSR - a country with political system the
> > idealogical opposite of the Us and Britain.
> >
> > Communism went on to spread and by 1990 had produced 100 million
> > victims. it led to savagery everywhere, everytime.
> >
> > What was the reason for the double standards mentioned above? By the
> > end of 1939 the USSR was by far the greater aggressor. Its human
> > rights record up till then was the most appalling ever - the Ukraine
> > famine killed 7 million people needlessly.In addition there were the
> > purges of the 1930's enforced collectivisation.
> > What happened was simply not logical. I sense that there was great
> > malevalent power at work behind the scenes.
> > Will somebody attempt to explain this to me. It would be helpful also
> > to post a few links.
>
> This is a disingenuous post. No one in their right mind would ask why
> Britain declared war on Germany rather than USSR. The simple answer is that
> Germany was attacking Britain's allies in Europe and was planning to invade
> and conquer Britain.
They took territory from Poland that had been taken from them under
the Versailles Treaty.Its much debated as to whether they actually
intended to invade Britain. Operation SeaLion was just an errant plan.
The USSR wasn't.
Rubbish - By December 1939 they had taken the other half of Poland and
had invaded Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia
Regardless of how treacherous and
> expansionist the USSR emerged as after the war, it's a simple reality that
> you have to deal with immediate threats before you deal with long term
> threats.
So tens of millions of dead Ukrainians and a system that was an
ideological opposite of the US and Britain dont matter?
You seem to overlook Germany's invasion of Belgium, Holland and,
> most of all, France.
Your timeline is seriously skewed.Britain declared war on Germany
prior to this.Besides, at wars end the USSR had half of Europe.
Yes, it's true the Hitler always had hopes that Britain
> might become an ally rather than an enemy but that was just another
> manifestation of his insanity.
The only Brit that wanted war was Churchill - everyone else didnt want
a war with Germany - their reason being that the slaughter of WW1 was
just a handful of years prior.Was all of Britain similarly insane?
He could not see that (a) Britain would never
> be silly enough to allow itself to be used as pawn in his game and (b) while
> many British hoped that Hitler could be contained or appeased, there is no
> way that Britain would ever formally ally themselves with the swinish Nazis
> once evidence of their quest for world domination was incontrovertible.
But they did ally themselves with the USSR - which butchered tens of
millions of its own.
Bottom line - the crimes of the left vastly exceed the crimes of the
right.
"a.d.danilecki" <szopen@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f4f8da4.0306230437.4369ef7b@no-spam
> "The Enlightenment" <bernxard@no-spam> wrote in message
news:<DniJa.1979$r64.47773@no-spam>...
> [cut]
> > They had a pact. You make it sound like it was a defensive measure.
> > The Germans were motivated by the large amount of German land annexed
into
> > Poland. This was well inside traditional Polish Borders. This
annexation
>
> Fact that most of populaiton of this areas declared BEFORE WWI in data
> prepared by GERMAN government decalred themselves Poles,
Rubbish. You obfusificate. Empires often contain multiple ethnic groups.
The Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Swedes all did and the
Polish rulers were not without fault.
There is a reasonable history of Poland here. It may not suit your "poland
was brutaly treated myth"
> and by 1939
> even more was Poles, is irrelevant, since Poles are subhumans.
If you say so and it makes you happy.
However many racist statements seem to have equivalent origin in Polish
chauvanism. I am utterly stunned at the venom and visciousness of these
POlish Nationalists. They make the Nazis look like nice guys.
Some of their statements are repeated half way down the page in italics.
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html
>
> Fact that this territories were brutally conquered by Germans in three
> partitions of Poland of course is also irrevelant, because only
> Germans had right to conquer other lands.
You are ofcourse refering to Fredrick the Great, in what was it 1790? You
don't mention that several other nations were onvolved as well such
Russians, Ukranians or that Poland itself was ALWAYS a fluid multi-ethnic
state.
What you refer to as "poland" was in fact a "polish empire" made up of many
nations of people, changing as to mariage, allegineces and the many wars the
Polish Empire fought. These people simply should not have to be part of a
Polish state and ruled by such people.
Or perhaps you refer to Danzig Gdansk and Hanseatic city as far back as
1200.
Post world war 1 Poland was well inside any traditional border irrespective
of ethnic poles.
When Germany took the Sudetenland over the Sudeten german issue Poland
invaded Czecholovakia to take advantage! What loving pacifist these were.
I'm sure the minority Hungarians, Ukranians experienced the same tollerance
as the German minority.
>
> > Millions of Germans were mistreated in Poland. They were promised a
Swiss
> > style Confederation. What they got was quite different: The so called
>
> None promised them anything.
The brutality and chauvanism of Polish Nationalists was a big part of the
cause of WW2.
You seem to display that arrogance.
The principle of self determination. There were supposed to be fair
elections.
These were not reaosonable group of people with whom a sensible negotiation
was possible.
>
>
> > > then against Warsaw in the Polish Campaign and
> > > Rotterdam in the campaign in the West.
> >
> >
> > You will find that the luwfwaffe was a tactical airforce designed to
support
> > the Army. A stuka could hit a tank with pin point accuracy. Even a
Ju88 in
>
> That's why they were training on targets like hospital in Wielun or
> similar.
I'm sure this is someones propaganda. The gullible who need to believe it
will, those that need atrocieites to justify their own atrocieties will
also clasp onto such things. It is the way of the world.
>
>
> As for USSR, let's try to rememeber, than Rydz-Smigly ordered all
> Polish units to withdraw to Rumunia and not fight with soviets. Only
> units which did not receive orders or were directly attacked fought
> with Soviets. Polish governemnt deliberately choose to IGNORE soviet
> act.
>
> a.d.danilecki "szopen'
"The Enlightenment" <bernxard@no-spam> wrote in message news:<uLNJa.443$p8.18670@no-spam>...
> "a.d.danilecki" <szopen@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3f4f8da4.0306230437.4369ef7b@no-spam
> > "The Enlightenment" <bernxard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:<DniJa.1979$r64.47773@no-spam>...
> > [cut]
> > > They had a pact. You make it sound like it was a defensive measure.
> > > The Germans were motivated by the large amount of German land annexed
> into
> > > Poland. This was well inside traditional Polish Borders. This
> annexation
> >
> > Fact that most of populaiton of this areas declared BEFORE WWI in data
> > prepared by GERMAN government decalred themselves Poles,
>
> Rubbish. You obfusificate. Empires often contain multiple ethnic groups.
> The Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Swedes all did and the
> Polish rulers were not without fault.
But that were Poles, who declared themselves Poles and in 1939
delcared clearly their loyalty to Polish state.
> There is a reasonable history of Poland here. It may not suit your "poland
> was brutaly treated myth"
It was, by XIX century standards. Of course WWII change our thinking
of what is "brutal".
> > and by 1939
> > even more was Poles, is irrelevant, since Poles are subhumans.
> If you say so and it makes you happy.
It was irony. Since you think that it was Ok to Germany to annex areas
inhabited in majority by Poles, it seems that opinion of inhabitants
plays no role.
> However many racist statements seem to have equivalent origin in Polish
> chauvanism. I am utterly stunned at the venom and visciousness of these
> POlish Nationalists. They make the Nazis look like nice guys.
I read that page you cited. It is fulfilled with carefully choosen
truths and half-truths, omitting the cites of the opposite belief. The
author quotes Sienkiewicz from TO but omits sentences when Sienkiewicz
describe the courage of some of the TO knights (and ignores fact that
one of positive heroes from the book was German). Or cites other books
by the author, where Germans sometimes are more loyal and honourable
than some of Polish soldiers (with fire and the sword, where German
mercenaries choose to die rather than betray Polish crown). Or ignores
fat that main inspiration for Dmowski, founder of endecja, was German
nationalism. Or writes that 400.000 German "escaped" Poland when it
was German government that pressed Germans to live Poland, in hope
that without German clerks, doctors etc Polish state will collapse.
Etc, etc.
> > Fact that this territories were brutally conquered by Germans in three
> > partitions of Poland of course is also irrevelant, because only
> > Germans had right to conquer other lands.
>
> You are ofcourse refering to Fredrick the Great, in what was it 1790? You
> don't mention that several other nations were onvolved as well such
> Russians, Ukranians or that Poland itself was ALWAYS a fluid multi-ethnic
> state.
Ukrainians were involved in the sense the chicken was involved in the
meal.
> What you refer to as "poland" was in fact a "polish empire" made up of many
Not empire. Poland-Lithuania was never referencing to itself as empire
and never was attempting to be one. Utter pacifism of majority of
Poles was one of reasons P-L collapsed.
> nations of people, changing as to mariage, allegineces and the many wars the
> Polish Empire fought. These people simply should not have to be part of a
> Polish state and ruled by such people.
...and that's why German inhabitants up to early XIX revolted against
Prussia's rule and in XVIII century sing patriotic songs about Poland
(in German).
> Or perhaps you refer to Danzig Gdansk and Hanseatic city as far back as
> 1200.
founded in X century and up to XIV century part of Poland. And then
part of Poland from 1470s to 1790s. Which after WWI was not part of
Poland.
> When Germany took the Sudetenland over the Sudeten german issue Poland
> invaded Czecholovakia to take advantage! What loving pacifist these were.
Real-politik.
1) Poland was not invited into Munich and in the result was encircled
by Germans and German allies.
2) Zaolzie was inhabited in majority by Poles, so by the same logic
Germans were applying to Sudetenland, it should get back to Poland
3) Zaolzie was conquered by Czechs when Poland was fighting for its
life with soviets, with Czechs violating earlier agreements between
local governments.
> I'm sure the minority Hungarians, Ukranians experienced the same tollerance
> as the German minority.
Actually, Ukrainians are the ones who have most to complain, because
quite many of their schools were closed and they were subject of
increasing polonisation action. German were most privileged minority,
in the sense of wealth and influence.
> The brutality and chauvanism of Polish Nationalists was a big part of the
> cause of WW2.
Nazi propaganda never died. You of course forget what was main
principle of German politics against Poland until, what a paradox,
Hitler. ALl earlier German governments were doing everything to damage
Poland (custom wars etc), Hitler was first who, irony, decided to take
opposite course and signed in 1933 pact of non-aggression with Poland.
http://www.orange.k12.oh.us/teachers/ohs/tshreve/apwebpage/readings/hitlerstresseman.html
" Stresemann tried to calm these fears by saying that in her hour of
weakness German foreign policy had to advance by ‘finesse’
(finassieren), as Metternich had in 1809. The three great tasks would
be a solution of the reparations question, some protection for the ten
to twelve million Germans living outside the Reich (Auslandsdeutsche)
and a revision of the German border with Poland"
It's hard to be trustful to neighbour who states that his main goal is
to take the land from you.
> The principle of self determination. There were supposed to be fair
> elections.
And there were, until 1926 Pilsudski take the power, after what
election were semi-free.
> These were not reaosonable group of people with whom a sensible negotiation
> was possible.
And that's why Hitler signed with them non-aggression pact and
promised
access to Black Sea if Poland would cede corridor and access to
anticommintern pact.
> > > You will find that the luwfwaffe was a tactical airforce designed to
> support
> > > the Army. A stuka could hit a tank with pin point accuracy. Even a
> Ju88 in
> >
> > That's why they were training on targets like hospital in Wielun or
> > similar.
>
> I'm sure this is someones propaganda. The gullible who need to believe it
> will, those that need atrocieites to justify their own atrocieties will
> also clasp onto such things. It is the way of the world.
It's not. Luftwaffe was strafing people on the roads, bombing
undefended cities etc. Hundreds of Polish civilians died in 1939.
a.d.danilecki "szopen"
The Enlightenment wrote:
Bullshit, my dear Frederick,
The text you qouted is called "revisionism".
I guess some people have very low ways to earn their living.
Some people have problems with accepting history the way it was.
It may come to you as a surprise but my own family originated
in Germany. My grand-grand-grand-father come from Germany and
set a wind mill in a village called Siedlatkow approx. around 1863 .
The family name was Meyer.
The family polonized quickly and life must have been good for them.
Not a single reference to any one of them trying to go back.
On Sunday, 17th of September 1939 my grand-grandfather was on his
way from the church in a buggy. German soldiers confiscated the vehicle
and 80 something years old man had to walk 7km home.
He was of a strong constitution, and walked a lot in his life but the very
thought of anyone simply stealing his property from him was so overwhelming
that he died on the same day..
2 years, or so, later my family was given 10 minutes to pack and leave the family
home in the middle of night for GG. Their area was named Warthegau, become
a part of Reich and 2 millions Poles met this fate. Their home was given to Germans.
These Germans hardly spoke any German at all.
They were resettled form Russia to Reich..
My family spent war in a misery, despite they could have easily
claimed German citizenship.
After the war they returned where they come from - to Siedlatkow.
But for the period of war they have never hidden their German roots.
I still remember the surname "Mejer" written under the old house number.
When I was in Germany in early 80 seeking asylum I refused to be
classified as a German either.
***
The article you quoted is a collection of rubbish.
I don't intend to dispute it.
Quotes may be correct - but you could collect a similar set of quotes
about, say Muslims or Asians from aus.politics, if you only wanted to,
within a week. I does not mean that Australians are pathological
or stupid. You just don't make science by listening to idiots.
I will concentrate on one issue.
I just happened to know well about it and I hope (of course I don't)
that it it will give you a hint of reflection because it shows nicely
how completely out of whack the presented facts are:
The article alleges that Copernicus was a German.
In reality:
Copernicus wrote this line on 23 April 1517 in Olsztyn
on the document allocating plot of land to a peasant:
"actum dias St Adalberti, Pater Patroni et Apostoli"
(given on the day of St Adalbert, patron of the Motherland and apostole).
St Adalbert (Wojciech) is a patron of Poland.
But his acts say more than words:
Copernicus himself let the defence of castle of Olsztyn against Teutonic Order soon
after (and he won!). He must have hated them since childhood:
Copernicus' father was a treasurer of Zwiazek Jaszczurczy (Lizard Organisation)
an organisation involved in protecting Polish interests against these of Teutonic Order.
Among other things they co-financed 1466 war between Poland and the Order.
(you must feel stupid now)
I don't care which language Copernicus spoke.
Poles always used tens of them.
He wrote in Latin, as it was customary.
The Polish scripture was developed shortly after his death by Rej and Kochanowski.
Guttenberg and Luther wrote in Latin too.
Latin was a universal language, mind you.
Unfortunately the rest of this crap is not better.
What is the value of conclusions build on such twisted facts?
BTW: every child in Poland knows that Wit Stwosz was a German.
(his Polish name is the most beautiful and poetic. It means: Wit, The Creator).
It was not in 1440. [Copernicus himself attended the consecration in 1501
while he studied at Jagiellonian University]. The work took some 20 years..
The Polish king gave him a waiver of taxes as a privilege after the
altar was commissioned. He was loved by people of Krakow and he is
immortalized in a number of books, poetry, plays and films.
Wit wanted to go back Nurnberg. He did.
Shortly after reaching his home town his throat was cut in a pub brawl.
Regards,
--
Mr Krzysztof Wozniak ,-_|\ E-mail: K.WOZNIAK@no-spam
Edith Cowan University / \ Phone: 61-8-9273 8026
Churchlands WA, 6018 $_,-._/ Fax: 61-8-9273 8000
Australia o