In alt.religion.christian Michael Christ <jesus_au@no-spam> wrote:
: Did you want some attention? :-).
Alex:
No, I just accepted it when it came along.
: Manipulating the Scriptures to say what men want them to say will not
: profit.
Alex:
Depends on the intention.
: This is the man who is cleansed of...all...unrighteousness...
Alex:
Except for the one needing to proclaim such. The righteous walk in hidden
virtue.
: He is the man who loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all
: his mind. Such a man is perfectly Spirited as his Father in heaven is
: perfectly Spirited.
Alex:
You are right: less than perfection will not do. And thinking one is perfe=
ct
when one isn't won't either do.
: A sinner has an advocate, a Person who has paid in full his account; sur=
ely
: the Lord is worthy.
: But...if a man does not choose to lose his life, then advocacy is of no
: avail.
: There is no darkness in Christ.
: Whoever sins is in darkness.
Alex:
Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.
: In them is no darkness at all.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: "Brian Garrison" <justabranch@no-spam> wrote in message
: news:Zh3Ja.71398$Pc5.98@no-spam
:> DO CHRISTIANS SIN?
:>
:> by
:>
:> Kyle Butt, M.A.
:>
:> A quick reading through the small epistle of 1 John reveals a number of
:> verses that seem to disagree with each other. For instance, in 1 John
: 1:8,10
:> the author assures his readers that all people have sinned. In 2:1, Joh=
n
:> seems to indicate that even Christians will sin and therefore need Jesu=
s
:> Christ to be their advocate. Yet, 3:6 has John on record as saying:
: "Whoever
:> abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known
:> Him." In verse 8 of chapter 3, John wrote: "He who sins is of the devi=
l,
:> for the devil has sinned from the beginning." And verse 9 states: "Whoe=
ver
:> has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he
:> cannot sin, because he has been born of God." Steve Wells, in his work,
: The
:> Skeptic's Annotated Bible, wrote concerning these verses in chapter 3:
:> "Earlier in this letter (1:8,10) John assured us that everyone sins. Ye=
t
: in
:> these verses he claims that Christians don't sin" (Wells, 2003).
:>
:> Are these verses examples of contradictions within the Bible? If they a=
re
:> not, what do they mean? Do Christians sin, or don't they?
:>
:> The answers to these questions actually are much simpler than it may, a=
t
:> first, appear. When we compare other translations of 3:6,8,9, we see th=
at
:> the actual Greek wording of the verses makes a major difference in the
:> understanding of the passages. R.C.H. Lenski translated 3:6 as follows:
:> "Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone continuing =
to
:> sin has not seen him, nor has he known him" (1966, pp. 457-458, emp.
: added).
:> Lenski translated verse 9: "Everyone that has been born from God does n=
ot
: go
:> on doing sinning because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to=
go
:> on sinning because he has been born of God" (p. 462, emp. added). The N=
ew
:> International Version translates 3:6: "No on who lives in him keeps on
:> sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him"
: (emp.
:> added).
:>
:> Lenski explained that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the
:> present durative, which should be translated "does not go on sinning" (=
pp.
:> 458,462). John, then, is saying no more in these verses than what Paul =
was
:> saying in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: "What shall we say then? Shall =
we
:> continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who
: died
:> to sin live any long in it?" Numerous other verses teach that Christian=
s
:> will commit sins, even after they have been washed in the blood of Chri=
st
:> (cf. Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13). However, John is saying that
: any
:> person who rebelliously continues to sin, making it his or her usual,
:> habitual way of life, is not following God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek
: present
:> infinitive means to habitually sin without compunction. In more practic=
al
:> terms (to offer an example), it is one thing for a Christian to slip up
: and
:> commit an act of sexual immorality for which he or she is penitent. It =
is
:> altogether another thing for a person to live as a prostitute and claim=
to
:> be "having fellowship with the Father" (1 John 1:6).
:>
:> Therefore, it is easily shown that no discrepancies exist between the
: verses
:> under discussion in 1 John. Furthermore, it is refreshing to know that
: when
:> a Christian does sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Chris=
t
: the
:> righteous."
:>
:> REFERENCES
:>
:> Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptic's Annotated Bible [On-line], URL:
:> http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/index.html.
:>
:> Lenski, R.C.H. (1966), The Interpretation of the I and II Epistles of
: Peter,
:> the Three Epistles of John, and the Epistle of Jude (Minneapolis, MN:
:> Augsburg).
:>
:>
:> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
: --
:> ----
:>
:> Copyright =A9 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.
:>
:> For catalog, samples, or further information, contact:
:>
:>
:> Apologetics Press
:> 230 Landmark Drive
:> Montgomery, Alabama 36117
:> U.S.A.
:> Phone (334) 272-8558
:> http://www.apologeticspress.org
:>
:>
--=20
Waiting for you to return.
In alt.religion.christian Michael Christ <jesus_au@no-spam> wrote:
: Alex:
:>Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)
: That must be disappointing Alex. :-).
Alex:
Why do you keep erring about the nature of the heart of Alex,
Michael? Alex prefers accordance over discords. But he won't
seek accordance by all means. Where it is necessary in his
mind to differ, he will.
--
Waiting for you to return.
"Alexander Kalinowski" <alex@no-spam> wrote in
message news:bdcc5s$r23ch$2@no-spam
> In alt.religion.christian Michael Christ <jesus_au@no-spam> wrote:
> : Alex:
> :>Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)
>
> : That must be disappointing Alex. :-).
>
> Alex:
> Why do you keep erring about the nature of the heart of Alex,
> Michael? Alex prefers accordance over discords. But he won't
> seek accordance by all means. Where it is necessary in his
> mind to differ, he will.
Alex doesn't know Alex, Alex.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In alt.religion.christian Michael Christ <jesus_au@no-spam> wrote:
: "Alexander Kalinowski" <alex@no-spam> wrote in
: message news:bdcc5s$r23ch$2@no-spam
:> In alt.religion.christian Michael Christ <jesus_au@no-spam> wrote:
:> : Alex:
:> :>Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)
:>
:> : That must be disappointing Alex. :-).
:>
:> Alex:
:> Why do you keep erring about the nature of the heart of Alex,
:> Michael? Alex prefers accordance over discords. But he won't
:> seek accordance by all means. Where it is necessary in his
:> mind to differ, he will.
: Alex doesn't know Alex, Alex.
Alex:
That's actually right because there is no Alex to begin with.
Not-Alex knows Alex and his way of knowing is not fundamentally different
from not-knowing. Thus Not-Alex cannot be reached by any words from Michael.
Let the Not-Michael in you do the talking and you'll find yourself in
instant accordance with Alex.
--
Waiting for you to return.
Duane wrote:
> >Hi Craig,
> >
> >Could you give an example of how the so-called 'perfectionists' alter
> >Scripture and the definition of sin?
Griz wrote:
> The two easiest example to cite at this time would be to consider only
> violations of the Decalogue to be sin; and to consider sin an
impossibility
> once a person was "really" saved. Both involve a degree of Spiritual
> stretches and gymnastics to sustain.
>
> >It seems to me this is an altering of Scripture and the definition of
> >sin. What does it mean to 'slip up' anyway? Is a slip up not a willful
> >act of sin, and hence outright rebellion against God? I find the
> >doctrines presented in the original post extremely confusing.
> >
> >
> >Duane.
Griz wrote:
> From the example Jesus gives of the prodigal son, a slip-up is sin, it can
> be willfull, and it can include pride, self-will, and even rebellion: for
> the prodigal's actions were all of these sins against his father and
family,
> and more.
>
> Yet the gracious father not only welcomed him back, but was daily and
> anxiously awaiting his return. I don't think anyone can refute that this
> parable of Jesus was a model of the Father and His children.
> God welcomes back even the openly rebellious providing the steps of
> reconcilliation are present and sincere. But that being said, constant or
> continual rebellion against God is not something to be trifled with -- for
> we never know when this era of grace will be over and then the judgment.
When the prodigal son returned he returned broken in heart, and contrite
in spirit, in dust and ashes, with all his heart.
All.
Did he again seek to leave?
You can know for sure that he did not.
You see, they only know 'before', not after. For they do not know what
it is to surrender all. They do not know of the new life of the prodigal
son in the house of the His Father.
Did he again seek to leave?
Of course not, for his eyes saw and his ears heard. His heart now
new and understood where his treasure was.
He was lost and now was found, he was dead and now was alive.
They would have you believe that the son looks out the door occasionally
and 'slips out' the door occasionally like it was a 'norm' of a son of God.
A son of God knows he was lost and knows he was found, knows he
was dead and knows he now lives; he loves his Father with _all_, above
and beyond _all_ that there is...and in that sin is cast from him as far is
the east is to the west, a gulf that is fixed forever. Amen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~