"Rowland Croucher"
> In a sentence, I heard Chris say the Church needs to be far more
> creative
When the churches have kicked out the truly creative paeople and are now
addicted to Jesus Jingles, God Ads and other assorted Christian Kitsch what
hope is there to be creative???
> * Should a church be primarily mission-driven (or worship-driven, or
> koinonia-driven etc.)?
Should a church be at all? Should you just be promoting the kingdom of God?
> If humans worship with more consistency and discipline in a 'holy
> place' and 'holy time' why are some moderns wanting to change all
> that?
The premise is wrong. There is no place where God is not. One is drawn
into the transcendent by partricipating in life and love within the real
world not by withdrawing from world.
> What do you make of George Barna's (?) idea that churches
> become large _not_ primarily because of their evangelistic
> effectiveness or spirituality, but through more effective marketing?
One only has to look at the large pentecostal churches to realise that is
true.
> * To what extent does the health and vigour of a church depends on
> the enthusiasm-contagion from its leadership?
A poor leader can stifle everything.
> * Both of these extremes may reflect the 'unfinished business / needs' >
in the lives of the leader/s. For example people who are deeply hurt
> from bad past experiences will of course be more interested in
> healing, prayer etc.
No, we'd rather have nothing to do with church ever again. The statement
wrongly assumes that the victim needs healing when in fact it is the
perpetrators that are still existing comfortably within the church (and
condoned by the church) that need attention.
Mark, Exiled Believer
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.1966a222d3a76c2898970a@no-spam
> Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> > "Rowland Croucher"
<>
> > > * To what extent does the health and vigour of a church depends on
> > > the enthusiasm-contagion from its leadership?
> >
> > A poor leader can stifle everything.
>
> > No, we'd rather have nothing to do with church ever again. The statement
> > wrongly assumes that the victim needs healing when in fact it is the
> > perpetrators that are still existing comfortably within the church (and
> > condoned by the church) that need attention.
>
> Agreed.
>
> The rot is in the churches. Getting them to admit fault however is a
> long and painful process.
And what was that I read somewhere today about unconditional love? It's
supposed to be unconditional from not-yet-fully-redeemed people within the
church only? If Jesus/God loves such a bunch of imperfect people, is it
possible to ask for such love?
>
> lawrence
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,100 + articles!)
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> Develop fine artistry, and then you'll have a cultural base to speak to
> people across the suburb, city, nation or world.
Yes. Art speaks across all boundaries. Too much of contemporary "Christian
art" is merely propaganda.
> allow those in the pews to remain comfortable otherwise they
> wouldn't come..
It will only be a matter of time before the churches will instigate the
"ministry of customer service, marketting and human resource management".
"Rowland Croucher" wrote:
> > > No, we'd rather have nothing to do with church ever again. The
statement
> > > wrongly assumes that the victim needs healing when in fact it is the
> > > perpetrators that are still existing comfortably within the church
(and
> > > condoned by the church) that need attention.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > The rot is in the churches. Getting them to admit fault however is a
> > long and painful process.
>
> And what was that I read somewhere today about unconditional love? It's
> supposed to be unconditional from not-yet-fully-redeemed people within the
> church only? If Jesus/God loves such a bunch of imperfect people, is it
> possible to ask for such love?
It is very possible for at least some within the church to speak up for the
victimised and oppressed within the churches? Who does that? Is there
anyone at all?
When I was a Christian school teacher (associated with a Baptist church) a
member of the church who was a police officer asked for me to be
"terminated" because I was corrupting the primary aged kids by reading them
"The Never Ending Story". The same guy left his wife and kids and shacked up
with another lady a few months later. The minister and elders of the
Baptist church backed him at the time of their Inquisition against me. No
one from the church or Christian school helped me. None! Zilch! Zero!
At the end of my extended crucifixion I was asked, by the Head of the
Christian schooling organisation, to write the manual for setting up their
schools across Australia. I also helped a number of Christians going
through the same type of crucifixion in their Christian schools and churches
.... and it still hasn't stopped! The latest person I helped has recently
been appointed as a lecturer at a university thus ending years of stress and
oppression from his Christian school. At least the university will
appreciate his many talents and God given gifts. The Christian school never
did!
What does God say about standing up for the rights of the oppressed????
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> Or, as they've done at my church, get the laypeople to sign a Service
> Level Agreement.. (and, as far as I can tell, if you don't sign, you're
> not welcome to serve in ministry).
I like the fact that I had to sign a lifetime secrecy agreement with a
Christian school organisation so I could get paid the money the bastards
owed me. Apparently they don't want people like me telling the media about
their sins and illegalities hidden under their respectable guise as
"Christian leaders". If the people only knew what really went on behind
closed doors!
Rowland Croucher <rcroucher@no-spam> wrote:
> "Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1966a222d3a76c2898970a@no-spam
> > Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> > > "Rowland Croucher"
> <>
> > > > * To what extent does the health and vigour of a church depends on
> > > > the enthusiasm-contagion from its leadership?
> > >
> > > A poor leader can stifle everything.
> >
> > > No, we'd rather have nothing to do with church ever again. The statement
> > > wrongly assumes that the victim needs healing when in fact it is the
> > > perpetrators that are still existing comfortably within the church (and
> > > condoned by the church) that need attention.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > The rot is in the churches. Getting them to admit fault however is a
> > long and painful process.
>
> And what was that I read somewhere today about unconditional love? It's
> supposed to be unconditional from not-yet-fully-redeemed people within the
> church only? If Jesus/God loves such a bunch of imperfect people,
> is it possible to ask for such love?
It is possible.
However, I have seen whole families ostracised and shunned because they
sought to rectify wrongs by leaders of the churches they have been at. I
have seen outright hostility and politicking going on against those who
seek to rectify the wrongs within the church.
I'm not yet fully redeemed. Neither are those who have perpetrated hurt,
suffering and pain within the church. Merely because I acknowledge where
I fall does not absolve responsibility for those elsewhere to also take
account of their life and actions. Those hurt by the church DO need a
voice. Justice and mercy have to go hand in hand.
That's why it's still possible to ask for such love. Love without
responsibility towards the person you love, I feel, remains immature at
best. After all, when you love someone, you want the best for them..
lawrence
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3efcd473@no-spam
> "Rowland Croucher" wrote:
> It is very possible for at least some within the church to speak up for
the
> victimised and oppressed within the churches? Who does that? Is there
> anyone at all?
I've been known to do that...
> When I was a Christian school teacher (associated with a Baptist church)
a
> member of the church who was a police officer asked for me to be
> "terminated" because I was corrupting the primary aged kids by reading
them
> "The Never Ending Story". The same guy left his wife and kids and shacked
up
> with another lady a few months later. The minister and elders of the
> Baptist church backed him at the time of their Inquisition against me. No
> one from the church or Christian school helped me. None! Zilch! Zero!
Which is reprehensible, in my view.
<>
> What does God say about standing up for the rights of the oppressed????
God says we should do it. Otherwise we are worshipping someone other than
the God of the prophets.
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,200 + articles!)
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.196839c7cf6d7b7598970f@no-spam
> Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> > "Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
<>
> > Who speaks for the oppressed within the church???
>
> Those within the church who recognise the oppression and are willing to
> do something about it.
>
> lawrence
Peter Wagner says probably 3 % of Christians have a genuine 'prophetic'
gift. (If it's genuine, it will combine judgment and hope, and target
oppressors/oppression wherever they exist).
On this point, of course, prophets and institutions don't mix.
See, e.g., http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/alpt/alpt0095.htm
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,200 + articles!)
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.19677f0f976cc4a898970c@no-spam
> Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> <snip>
> > It will only be a matter of time before the churches will instigate the
> > "ministry of customer service, marketting and human resource
management".
>
> Or, as they've done at my church, get the laypeople to sign a Service
> Level Agreement.. (and, as far as I can tell, if you don't sign, you're
> not welcome to serve in ministry).
That's a new one on me.
Can you get a copy of that and post it here - or to me privately?
Lawrence: can you also post privately to me the name of the church you
belong to?
> lawrence
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,200 + articles!)
As a younger-ish person here I'd like to ask...
These "mega churches" are refeclecting the culture they are existing in.
(BTW I totally agree what has been said about them!:). The Church is
struggling to be relevant to the upcoming generations who are brought up
amassing hours in front of TV, computers and the like. How does the Church
deal with the current culture it finds itself in?
Personally I'm all for getting back to more quiet times in Church.. rather
than the latest catchy "tunes" (which I enjoy most of the time). I'm also up
for some worship/praise that more closely relates to life and God (ie. not
all "happy clappy" but some reflecting and lamenting!).
--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/reponse
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.1967e4434a755a9698970d@no-spam
> Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> > "Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> >
> > > Or, as they've done at my church, get the laypeople to sign a Service
> > > Level Agreement.. (and, as far as I can tell, if you don't sign,
you're
> > > not welcome to serve in ministry).
> >
> >
> > I like the fact that I had to sign a lifetime secrecy agreement with a
> > Christian school organisation so I could get paid the money the bastards
> > owed me.
>
> That bites.
>
> > Apparently they don't want people like me telling the media about
> > their sins and illegalities hidden under their respectable guise as
> > "Christian leaders". If the people only knew what really went on behind
> > closed doors!
>
> Of course. It would tarnish their professional image and whatnot if the
> truth were to be known. Since the megachurches are pitching "image" and
> corporate infrastructure as the be-all-and-end-all for how they deliver
> their services, performance is now the lowest common denominator for
> whether or not volunteers, laypeople and those outside the recognised
> "leadership" channels are valued.
>
> Welcome to middle-class hell. The pews are comfortable, the services are
> slick and can probably beat most live gigs at Telstra Dome in terms of
> lighting and sound, but the Gospel message is secondary. It's all about
> whether you "meet God" in the music these days while feeling comfortable
> in your surroundings. (Which is itself heresy: You can meet God
> anywhere, whether you're comfortable or not - the whole omnipresence
> deal).
>
> lawrence
>
>
>
>
>
I haven't seen the movie but I had to chuckle during the promo when Bruce
was replying to all the e-mail prayers in "God-speed" :)
--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/reponse
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.19683e85de67c565989710@no-spam
> A fairly good movie, imho.
>
> Strong scripting, especially regarding God, love and free will.
> It did play to the comedy party line that has been Jim Carrey's
> signature, so no real suprises in terms of screenplay.
>
> And it did display the whole omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient thing
> quite nicely.
>
> Guess that's the nature of grace. We can approach God freely, whether we
> are comfortable, distracted, uncomfortable, stressed or whatever. It is
> a relationship, and relationships can handle such factors quite well.
>
> lawrence
"Rowland Croucher" wrote:
>> When I was a Christian school teacher (associated with a Baptist >>
church) a member of the church who was a police officer asked for >> me to
be "terminated" because I was corrupting the primary aged
>> kids by reading them "The Never Ending Story". The same guy left >> his
wife and kids and shacked up with another lady a few months
>> later. The minister and elders of the Baptist church backed him at >>
the time of their Inquisition against me. No
> > one from the church or Christian school helped me. None! Zilch! >>
Zero!
>
> Which is reprehensible, in my view.
And what do such actions do for people like me when we are again asked to
trust the institutional church? I trust God but not the institutional
church.
> > What does God say about standing up for the rights of the oppressed????
>
> God says we should do it. Otherwise we are worshipping someone
> other than the God of the prophets.
The prophets were persecuted for their stance by the religious people of
their day. The same happens in our time.
"Rowland Croucher" wrote:
> Peter Wagner says probably 3 % of Christians have a genuine
> 'prophetic' gift. (If it's genuine, it will combine judgment and hope, and
> target oppressors/oppression wherever they exist).
>
> On this point, of course, prophets and institutions don't mix.
... and most OT prophets were not priests.
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> This may explain why entire families get ostracised and abused in
> trying to rectify wrongs. The fallout from exposing the failings is huge.
There really does need to be more research done in this area. In customer
service training (Aussie Host) one is taught the following:
********
A satisfied customer may tell 3-5 people about their experience.
A dissatisfied customer may tell 8 - 10 people about their experience.
The average business never hears from 96% of its unhappy customers.
For every complaint received the avergae company in fact has 26 customers
with similar complaints, 6 of which are serious problems.
Of the customers who register a compl;aint as many as 70% will do business
again with your organisation if the complaint is resolved effectively. That
figure goes up to a staggering 95% if the customer feels that their
complaint was resolved quickly.
It costs 6 times as much to attract a new customer as it does to keep an
existing customer.
The Real cost of a complaining customer
1 complaining customer & 26 other dissatisfied customers = 27 unhappy
customers.
27 complaining customers tell up to 20 others = 540
540 people may have heard complaints about your company and it doesn't stop
there!
******************
As a "customer" complaining about the institutional church I think the same
statistics work in Christianity.
> People matter.
That is my motto! It should be written on the walls of every church
building.
> Reconciliation and/or resolution (including judgement)
> has to take place between people, because at the end of the day, if
> the institution shoves the issue under the carpet (to save face or
> otherwise), you're still left with hurting people. And people matter.
The church's reconciliation with those it has alienated would be a good
start.
"Bradley" wrote:
> As a younger-ish person here I'd like to ask...
More youngish people are needed in this discussion! Welcome.
> The Church is
> struggling to be relevant to the upcoming generations who are brought > up
amassing hours in front of TV, computers and the like. How does > the Church
deal with the current culture it finds itself in?
I think a start is realising that the techniques and methods of yesterday
may not be relevant for today.
Example: Few people learn from what they hear in a sermon ... especially
when questions can't be asked ... or answered if asked. I learn through
visual means ... I can read the sermon faster that the preaching can speak
it ... and I retain more info by this method. Others learn from doing and
not hearing or seeing. Others learn through a mixture. Individualised
instructuion is required.
Secondly, the church has to understand the language and thought forms of the
day. We are living in a post-Christian age that uses postmodernism
extensively. How many Christians understand what that means to Christian
communication with the world?
Thirdly, the church must embrace the arts as good within themselves and not
use art as a propaganda tool. Good art speaks volumes. Bad art is easily
forgotten. In the 60s rock music was of the devil. Now it is acceptable in
CCM. But what of rap music (and other more contemporary styles) in the
church? By the time they ae included the kids of today will be middle aged.
Fourthly, the church must openly and enthusiastically embrace intellectual
thought and discussion. The mind is not evil. It is not evil to ask
questions. All truth is God's truth. We are all both learners and
teachers.
> Personally I'm all for getting back to more quiet times in Church..
> rather than the latest catchy "tunes" (which I enjoy most of the time).
There is definitely a place for quiet contemplation and meditaion in
silence. Are the "stadiums" and "concert halls" of contemprary Christian
architecture suited? Think of the transcendence experienced in the great
cathedrals of yesterday ... the high ceilings and the stained glass windows.
> I'm also up for some worship/praise that more closely relates to life
> and God (ie. not all "happy clappy" but some reflecting and
> lamenting!).
As a writer I am intensely interested in the lyric. This is why I dread the
Jesus Jingles, God Ads and Kristyun Kitsch of much of today's Christianity.
It says nothing of any importance. I listen to Van Morrison singing "Be
Thou My Vision" (from "Hymns To The Silence") and I am rapt! The hymn says
something from the heart ... and "Van the man" sings it with commitment from
the heart.
Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> "Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
<snip>
> As a "customer" complaining about the institutional church I think the same
> statistics work in Christianity.
They well might.
> > People matter.
>
> That is my motto! It should be written on the walls of every church
> building.
Unfortunately, sometimes the people within the church forget this in
place of:
1) vision and direction for the church - people get squashed, ignored,
etc..
2) politics
3) pride in the institution
> > Reconciliation and/or resolution (including judgement)
> > has to take place between people, because at the end of the day, if
> > the institution shoves the issue under the carpet (to save face or
> > otherwise), you're still left with hurting people. And people matter.
>
> The church's reconciliation with those it has alienated would be a good
> start.
So how do you get someone to agree with you when they feel they have
done no wrong? (An extreme example of how the church may deny alienation
of people, but anyway..)
lawrence
"Rowland Croucher" wrote:
> I enjoy questions in church, but most of my pastoral colleagues don't, for
> several reasons
>
> * they haven't had sufficient experience in tertiary/adversarial
situations
> to trust themselves to handle it well...
> * sometimes you get belligerents monopolizing such situations
...
> * negative feedback/argument from the floor frightens the l'il old
ladies...
This is all part of being a teacher ... which is part of being a minister in
a church. Does it hint that the theological training is inadequate?
> * their grasp of the subject may not be adequate (I can hear the
> response to that one comin' :-)
... and rightly so! You also state "when God has spoken to me through
preaching'. What is if God doesn't speak through the preaching? What if
one has wasted half an hour (or longer!) listening to waffle? What if you
(and Jesus) have both fallen asleep by the monotone and lack of anything
interesting? How many such "sermoans" is a parishioner supposed to put up
with while still supportuing the church with "tithes and offering"? [And
you never get to eat your tithes like the bible says!]
> Until/unless a congregation is committed to protocols of humility and
> honest enquiry, I wouldn't open the session up for questions normally.
Who assesses this? Why only cater for the middle ground? A teacher has to
accommodate the middle ground , the extension of the gifted and the
remediation of those having difficulty. Teachers and trainers around the
world do this every week! Why can't a minister do the same? The "sermoan"
is a form of teaching isn't it? Why not try different teaching styles and
different media to get the message across? Is difficulty for the minister
really any proper excuse? If the minister cannot do this then get someone
else in the church who has the talent to do so.
> Also, when God has spoken to me through preaching, I mostly want a > bit
of silence/space to absorb it, without the distractions of pedants!
When I hear absolute garbage like "God didn't use those sinful backsliding
Roman Catholics like Oscar Romero and Paulo Friere in South America" I like
to ask questions immediately. (That one came from my local Baptist church
... I walked out after 5 minutes of this crap.)
Too often "sermoans" are one way conversations voicing an opinion in an
attempt to control the thinking of the congregation. Loosen the people up
with some crowd activity like singing and follow with the brainwashing.
Hypnotism is not very far from many church services. Many of the same
techniques are used. What does that say about the value of the sermon and
the importance of its content after "softening up the crowd".
Experiment:
1. Give a weekly half hour sermon - with no added extras like singing etc -
and see how many people are still turning up each week to hear it after 3
months.
2. Look at Hitler's rallies. Crowds at night, singing, people dressing up,
cheering and clapping ... and then the propaganda speech by an elevated
speaker... without any questioning allowed.
3. Visit a local school classroom and observe contemporary educational
methodology ....Interaction ... Choice ... Individulaised instruction ...
Extension and remediation ... Assessment and evaluation ... Skills, values
and content addressed ... Questioning ... Research ... Extensive
preparation by the teacher (Ask to see their Program book and record
keeping)
4. Compare the three above. Which would you rather attend? Whuich would
you learn the most from?
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> > > Reconciliation and/or resolution (including judgement)
> > > has to take place between people, because at the end of the day, if
> > > the institution shoves the issue under the carpet (to save face or
> > > otherwise), you're still left with hurting people. And people matter.
> >
> > The church's reconciliation with those it has alienated would be a good
> > start.
>
> So how do you get someone to agree with you when they feel they
> have done no wrong? (An extreme example of how the church may
> deny alienation of people, but anyway..)
I think the methodologies used in both Aboriginal Reconciliation and
reconciliation between victims of crimes and young offenders works well.
I would recommend a mediated face to face confrontation with the
perpetrators who have to listen to the hurt felt by the victim. The victim
tells their story with emphasis on their feelings - not justifying their
position or actions. Example: "As a result of your actions I felt .....What
happened to me afterwards was ....Now I am feeling ............I forgive you
but I cannot forget the hurt." The forgiveness of the victim is important
and a step to the victim's recovery.
The next step is a road map for the future. How will the perpetrator and
victim work together in the future? Can a mutual agreement be reached that
will satisfy both sides?
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> > Example: Few people learn from what they hear in a sermon ... especially
> > when questions can't be asked ... or answered if asked. I learn through
> > visual means ... I can read the sermon faster that the preaching can
speak
> > it ... and I retain more info by this method. Others learn from doing
and
> > not hearing or seeing. Others learn through a mixture. Individualised
> > instructuion is required.
>
> I agree with you on this, Mark. It seems people only pick up 10% at best
> of what they hear in a sermon/ lecture environment.
>
> Would a cell group help with this individualised instruction ?
I think it is the perfect environment. The problem I have always
encountered is in the authoritarian control by the church hierarchy. A
group run along the lines of Paulo Friere's "Pedagogy of the Oppressed"
would work best. If the community gathering were restricted to a communal
meal (of real food ... not just a wafer and a thimble of grape juice) with
true praise and worship ... the educational side could be easily met in the
cell group. The minister becomes an educational resource rather than El
Supremo Presidente. The minister also becomes the co-ordinator of this Love
Feast (communal meal) to celebrate God.
> Art should never be used as a propaganda tool, imho. It should at best
> reflect the nature and creation of the artist, in their relationship
> with Jesus Christ, no matter where they are at in their journey. As soon
> as it becomes about propaganda, it misses the point of what fine art
> seeks to do.
Exactly! CCM has missed the point completely. Every work of art created by
an artist who is Christian is Christian art. The subject matter is
irrelevent. This is why Bach's "Coffee Cantata" is just as 'spiritual' as
his "Jesus Joy of Man's Desiring" ... and Rembrandt's "Danae" (a myth ...
with a woman's bare breast shown .... which a Christian School I worked at
said was "pornogrphic") is just as 'spiritual' as his depiction of himself
at the foot of the cross in "The Raising of The Cross"... and why Tolkein's
'Lord of the Rings' is just as 'spiritual' as C S Lewis' "Chronicles of
Narnia" (and much better written than Lewis's books!)
> > There is definitely a place for quiet contemplation and meditaion in
> > silence. Are the "stadiums" and "concert halls" of contemprary
Christian
> > architecture suited? Think of the transcendence experienced in the
great
> > cathedrals of yesterday ... the high ceilings and the stained glass
windows.
>
> Most, I'd say, aren't suited.
The community involvement in the building of Chartres Cathedral and its
magnificent beauty are something that today's church has not striven for. I
visited Bathurst Anglican Cathedral last week. The outside shell is a box.
No beauty. Economic rationalism and bean counters have had more say in its
construction than any decent artist. It pales in splendour compared to the
War Memorial directly across the road from it. Functionality has taken the
place of beauty and Christians are worse off as a result.
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> For a good looking picture on where the rubber hits the road in a
> positive way, try www.phuture.org.
I liked the article "Traits of Postmodern Worship"
http://www.phuture.org/s01_Articles/article.asp?ArticleID=66
> The day a lament becomes common place within a Pentecostal or other
> megachurch is the day the culture has changed to recognise the openness
> and frankness of today's generation. (What do you think all those teen >
angst Avril/Pink/Christina Aguleria songs are about? Being valued for
> who you are, even in spite of pain..)
Didn't the Psalmist only write Ren and Stimpy "happy happy joy joy" type
songs? ;-) I think their "Happy Happy Joy Joy Song" would work perfectly
well in most pente churches .... and no-one would ever suspect that it was
written by "evil secular humanists"!!!!
Mark and Bev Tindall wrote:
<sni>
> The community involvement in the building of Chartres Cathedral and its
> magnificent beauty are something that today's church has not striven for. I
> visited Bathurst Anglican Cathedral last week. The outside shell is a box.
> No beauty. Economic rationalism and bean counters have had more say in its
> construction than any decent artist. It pales in splendour compared to the
> War Memorial directly across the road from it. Functionality has taken the
> place of beauty and Christians are worse off as a result.
I won't be getting too involved in this, but even as an atheist I must
agree with you there. I too have admired the beauty of old churches
and hated the modern community hall appearance of the new ones. But
I would even go further than that - and here is where you might disagree
with me. I will use Catholicism as an example.
Having gone to a Catholic school I am able to compare the services of
then and now. I believe that the ceremonies, which have now been watered
down, also afforded a mystique. I consider that they, just like the
buildings, represented artistic expression.
Even the Japanese can appreciate the remains of the old packaging and
that is why we see them coming to Australia, having a Christian wedding
and being photographed in traditional western wedding apparel in front
of an old stone church.
Now with much of the spectacle gone, I think that it's much easier
for people to see catholicism as just another generic brand faith-market
product. It always was, of course, but now they make it much more
obvious. I am not surprised that they, like other churches, are losing
people in droves.
Best Regards,
Sean McHugh
I must say though that the church (building) is more than a Sunday meeting
place these days. My Church is developing a "complex" that is to be used
every day for the community. The expense of such a "not just for us" (the
Church) approach is multi-millions and it's "beauty" (hopefully it is) is
modern rather than classic.
But yes, I agree with the sentiment being expressed.
--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/reponse
"Sean McHugh" <smchugh@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3F01D411.5E840D93@no-spam
>
>
> Mark and Bev Tindall wrote:
>
> <sni>
>
> > The community involvement in the building of Chartres Cathedral and its
> > magnificent beauty are something that today's church has not striven
for. I
> > visited Bathurst Anglican Cathedral last week. The outside shell is a
box.
> > No beauty. Economic rationalism and bean counters have had more say in
its
> > construction than any decent artist. It pales in splendour compared to
the
> > War Memorial directly across the road from it. Functionality has taken
the
> > place of beauty and Christians are worse off as a result.
>
>
> I won't be getting too involved in this, but even as an atheist I must
> agree with you there. I too have admired the beauty of old churches
> and hated the modern community hall appearance of the new ones. But
> I would even go further than that - and here is where you might disagree
> with me. I will use Catholicism as an example.
>
> Having gone to a Catholic school I am able to compare the services of
> then and now. I believe that the ceremonies, which have now been watered
> down, also afforded a mystique. I consider that they, just like the
> buildings, represented artistic expression.
>
> Even the Japanese can appreciate the remains of the old packaging and
> that is why we see them coming to Australia, having a Christian wedding
> and being photographed in traditional western wedding apparel in front
> of an old stone church.
>
> Now with much of the spectacle gone, I think that it's much easier
> for people to see catholicism as just another generic brand faith-market
> product. It always was, of course, but now they make it much more
> obvious. I am not surprised that they, like other churches, are losing
> people in droves.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Sean McHugh
"Lawrence Meckan"
>>Example: "As a result of your actions I felt .....What
>> happened to me afterwards was ....Now I am feeling ............I
>> forgive you but I cannot forget the hurt." The forgiveness of the
>> victim is important and a step to the victim's recovery.
>
> OK. What happens if the perp denies it ?
Therein is the problem! Look how long it took the Roman Catholic Church to
admit they were wrong with Galileo!!!
Bradley,
Given your public comments elsewhere in discussion threads today, it is my
hope that given your insubstantial,delusional, partial and anti-semitic
claim to the Christian faith, that any tax-exempt status your community of
faith enjoy is removed from you.
"Bradley" <bradley@no-spam> wrote in message
news:ni6Ma.23$P84.378@no-spam
I must say though that the church (building) is more than a Sunday meeting
place these days. My Church is developing a "complex" that is to be used
every day for the community. The expense of such a "not just for us" (the
Church) approach is multi-millions and it's "beauty" (hopefully it is) is
modern rather than classic.
But yes, I agree with the sentiment being expressed.
--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/reponse
QOLON NOTE:
Bradley,
You ased, "If you are going to tell me such things please include an example
else you are just blowing hot air. (But I'm suspecting you enjoy that!)"
Your comment, that you are the "webservant/programmer that uploads the
articles Rowland send me to his site" would explain your attempt to defend
his insincerity on 27 June, 2003 when you used the opportunity to engage in
vilification. I quote: "You comments (and ravings) achieve absolutely
nothing in this NG. Your attitude as reflected in every one of your posts
suggests you are not loving and not willing to listen. I suggest it is in
fact YOU that should consider your behaviour here. Rowland has proven to
many here the type of person he is. He is respected by many in the Christian
community. But hey, I don't need to defend him!... simpy because we all
know there is no basis for the words you spit. ps. I've made my comment. I
am certainly not interested in entering into a 'discussion' with you or
reading any reply." ["Bradley" <bradley@no-spam>]
As you clearly have no intention of entering into discussion, then I'm not
sure why you delusionally believe your conduct is Christian. It seems at
odds with the 'love' you claim to unconditionally express towards others:
"a) I do not have to prove myself a Christian, to you or anyone
b) My proof of being a Christian is in my personal faith and my public
statement of such when I was baptised and in the life I have lived from then
on (which is a reflection of Spirit within).
c) The "proof" that I am a Christian is from 'the fruits' of my life and
from the Spirit within me (ie. nothing else within me such as knowledge, and
no, I'm not saying in itself knowledge is wrong!)." ["Bradley"
<bradley@no-spam>]
Of particular concern is that Google.com provides some variations on the
"Twenty years ago, I drove a cab for a living" which appears to relate to
a cowboy's life.
"Twenty years ago, I drove a cab for a living. It was a cowboy's life, a
life for someone who wanted no boss. What I didn't realize was that it was
also a ministry. Because I drove the night shift, my cab became a
moving confessional. Passengers climbed in, sat behind me in total
anonymity, and told me about their lives. I encountered people whose lives
amazed me, ennobled me, made me laugh and weep. But none touched me more
than a woman I picked up late one August night." [
http://puebloadvocacy.com/jane/taxi.htm ]
It seems that you are both liars and animals aren't the only ones who hunt
in packs. I too am well acquainted with religious based persecution and
much of it has occurred on the Internet--For which I have on Friday 22 June,
2003 received a new name and attended synagogue on Sabbath for the first
time as its blessing.
I also note that prophetic nature of my own CAB conversations which I had on
my way to Melbourne's premier Jewish store to buy a 'Kippah' as headwear
that is required for one to attend Synagogue--Please note I have no
objection to the Crown Casino. I don't gamble--Indeed should I ever need a
tattslotto ticket I usually give the money to someone to buy the lottery
co-jointly:
Part two--some of the conversation:
"What is your football team he asked?"
"I don't follow football," I said. "My mother forbade it (because of the
ugly natures of the people who played it) and I respected my mother too
much."
"Do you have change for fifty?" I asked.
"I'll have to stop somewhere along the way, unless you pay with cab-charge."
he said.
"I'd prefer to give you the 10% rather than to them. Perhaps the fare will
be sufficient that you'll have the change."
"Have you ever been to the Crown casino?" he asked.
"No I said. I haven't so much as set foot in the place--And I probably wont
ever have the need."
"You are a good man he said. So many people who go there are losers."
"Yes I know, how has it affected business?"
"Oh he said, look at all the empty cabs. No-one has any money and the small
businesses are struggling. And some of the cab driver's become angry."
We both knew where it had all gone. And when we arrived, he had plenty of
change. I thought to myself, cab driving is itself becoming a game of
chance and risk taking.
And on the return journey, I got a cab which had just pulled up at a petrol
station and I sat waiting for the driver to fill-up. As he got into the cab
and saw I already had the fare in my hand, he said, "It's the middle of the
day. We don't expect people to show that they have the money. But let me
tell you, so many young people these days run off without paying the fare--I
only ask at night."
"Don't worry about the music that's on, its fine," I said as he began
apologised and turned it down.
"I had a young chap come into the cab before you and demanded that I put the
radio station onto Nova, he put it up so loud. He needs music where-ever he
goes he explained."
"That's a bit cheeky I said and it sounds as though he is socially
dysfunctional with developing psychiatric problems."
- qolon
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/kabbalah/patent.html
"Bradley" <bradley@no-spam> wrote in message
news:1N8Ma.132$P84.2167@no-spam
Pastornet hosts many web sites, one of which is Rowland's (John Mark
Ministries).
I must tell you that I the webservant/programmer that uploads the articles
Rowland send me to his site.
I am disheartened that you miss the heart/intent behind some of the stories
that I think you are referring to (the point of the story), but I can see
some of the point I think you are making (some "christian" stories are
lame). This however does not give you the right to spit your spitefullness
out to it's fullest to all you encounter and heap judgement and criticism on
respected people (ie, Rowland, Chris).
If you are going to tell me such things please include an example else you
are just blowing hot air. (But I'm suspecting you enjoy that!)
QOLON NOTE:
Isn't www.pastornet.net.au the same www-site that hosts Rowland Croucher's
contrived and emotionally manipulative stories as SPAM.
He even uses the pronoun 'I' within them as an attempt to profess a
religious life indicative of the 'I AM' as YAHWEH and characterises
palliative carers as vultures--which perhaps a better characterisation of
his own lack of spiritual life.
- qolon
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/kabbalah/patent.html
"Theo Bekkers" <theo@no-spam> wrote in message
news:jM7Ma.478$oN.19866@no-spam being too damn nice
Chris. I killfiled him on the second day.
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:28 PM
It's getting like that... shame.
--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/reponse
QOLON NOTE:
Theo, what is truth?
The atheist-Godless one is perhaps telling an untruth.
If such was the case, it would not have been necessary on 27 June, 2003 to
have sent a complaint to abuse@no-spam of Misuse Report; Defamatory
material to which ref: (KMM10940654V98287L0KM). As you wouldn't have seen
the post you were responding to.
- Qolon
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/kabbalah/patent.html
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 4:48 PM
So many idiots... What was it you said about "cognitive wiring" being messed
up Rowland? :-)
Plonk.
Theo
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f00c155@no-spam
> "Rowland Croucher" wrote:
>
>
> > I enjoy questions in church, but most of my pastoral colleagues don't,
for
> > several reasons
> >
> > * they haven't had sufficient experience in tertiary/adversarial
> situations
> > to trust themselves to handle it well...
> > * sometimes you get belligerents monopolizing such situations
> ...
> > * negative feedback/argument from the floor frightens the l'il old
> ladies...
>
> This is all part of being a teacher ... which is part of being a minister
in
> a church. Does it hint that the theological training is inadequate?
Yes, that's part of the problem (though I believe seminaries are more in
touch with human reality than they've often been in the past...
>
> > * their grasp of the subject may not be adequate (I can hear the
> > response to that one comin' :-)
>
> ... and rightly so! You also state "when God has spoken to me through
> preaching'. What is if God doesn't speak through the preaching? What if
> one has wasted half an hour (or longer!) listening to waffle? What if you
> (and Jesus) have both fallen asleep by the monotone and lack of anything
> interesting? How many such "sermoans" is a parishioner supposed to put up
> with while still supportuing the church with "tithes and offering"? [And
> you never get to eat your tithes like the bible says!]
Point taken...
> > Until/unless a congregation is committed to protocols of humility and
> > honest enquiry, I wouldn't open the session up for questions normally.
>
> Who assesses this? Why only cater for the middle ground? A teacher has
to
> accommodate the middle ground , the extension of the gifted and the
> remediation of those having difficulty. Teachers and trainers around the
> world do this every week! Why can't a minister do the same? The
"sermoan"
> is a form of teaching isn't it?
It is, but there are elements in authentic preaching that are more than
didactic (you'll be able to figure where I'm going there, Mark)...
> Why not try different teaching styles and
> different media to get the message across? Is difficulty for the minister
> really any proper excuse? If the minister cannot do this then get someone
> else in the church who has the talent to do so.
Right on!
>
> > Also, when God has spoken to me through preaching, I mostly want a > bit
> of silence/space to absorb it, without the distractions of pedants!
>
> When I hear absolute garbage like "God didn't use those sinful backsliding
> Roman Catholics like Oscar Romero and Paulo Friere in South America" I
like
> to ask questions immediately. (That one came from my local Baptist church
> ... I walked out after 5 minutes of this crap.)
I wouldn't have walked out but I'd have tuned out. Those two, with Dom
Helder Camara, are a couple of my heroes!
>
> Too often "sermoans" are one way conversations voicing an opinion in an
> attempt to control the thinking of the congregation. Loosen the people up
> with some crowd activity like singing and follow with the brainwashing.
> Hypnotism is not very far from many church services. Many of the same
> techniques are used. What does that say about the value of the sermon and
> the importance of its content after "softening up the crowd".
P'raps we have to distinguish 'brain-washing' dimensions of fundamentalist
preaching from 'wishy-washy' liberal sermons, designed to change nobody...
There are other kinds of authentic preaching, I think...
>
> Experiment:
>
> 1. Give a weekly half hour sermon - with no added extras like singing
etc -
> and see how many people are still turning up each week to hear it after 3
> months.
God's people have always sung. The challenge is to encourage _appropriate_
singing (in about half a dozen respects)...
>
> 2. Look at Hitler's rallies. Crowds at night, singing, people dressing
up,
> cheering and clapping ... and then the propaganda speech by an elevated
> speaker... without any questioning allowed.
>
> 3. Visit a local school classroom and observe contemporary educational
> methodology ....Interaction ... Choice ... Individulaised instruction ...
> Extension and remediation ... Assessment and evaluation ... Skills, values
> and content addressed ... Questioning ... Research ... Extensive
> preparation by the teacher (Ask to see their Program book and record
> keeping)
>
> 4. Compare the three above. Which would you rather attend? Whuich would
> you learn the most from?
Again, many valid points taken...
(Love to have you in my parish, Mark!)
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,200 + articles!)
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> This may explain why they're trying to remoniker the huge, anonymous >
services where there is no real intimacy or fellowship (unless you do it
> before or after the service) at my church as "celebrations".
I think intimacy and fellowship are at the core of being a church. It is
not the attendance at worship services that is the core but the the help and
support given and received by each member of the community. I like Jean
Vanier's "Community and Growth" which he worked out amongst his integration
of those with disabilities.
"Rowland Croucher" wrote:
> The "sermoan"
> > is a form of teaching isn't it?
>
> It is, but there are elements in authentic preaching that are more than
> didactic (you'll be able to figure where I'm going there, Mark)...
For those who aren't familiar with the word, "didactic" describes a type of
teaching that "laws down the law". In the same manner as preaching,
trainers have to ensure saftey standards are met within industry. There are
no "ifs and buts". Saftety training is didactic.
In didactic education there is (or should be) a two fold focus on:
1. The understanding of the instruction
2. The application of the instruction
Some understand but do not do. Others do but do not understand.
I think the application cannot take place unless the heart is involved. It
is a matter of motivation and value. If the understanding is taught well
and the learner sees value for themself in the appliction then the pratice
will be inevitable.
If being 'spiritual' only involves pious acts and not also the nitty gritty
of real life then it is useless. I view spirituality as the giving and
receiving of love. This includes integrity and honesty. It includes one's
business and work ethic.
So, yes, there are various methods and styles of teaching required within
the church. I think ensuring the application of the teaching is by far the
hardest area and requires encouragement. "Ain't no-one perfick!"
>> 1. Give a weekly half hour sermon - with no added extras like
>> singing etc - and see how many people are still turning up each week >>
to hear it after 3 months.
>
> God's people have always sung. The challenge is to encourage
> _appropriate_ singing (in about half a dozen respects)...
My point was the centrality of the sermon in some protestant churches. If
it is central to the liturgy how much preparation is given to make it
inviting. Catholics have the mass (eucharist) as the central focus. If
there were no songs or sermon attached I think Catholics would still turn up
as the congragtion views it as important. If the sermon were the only item
in a protestant church would people still keep coming along? Is it that
imporatnt to them?
> (Love to have you in my parish, Mark!)
I'd love to be there if I could afford to move .... and didn't have family
commitments in Maitland "The City of Excitement" ;-) We will visit later as
we are planning to travel to Adelaide via Melbourne within the next year.
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> > > OK. What happens if the perp denies it ?
> >
> > Therein is the problem! Look how long it took the Roman Catholic Church
to
> > admit they were wrong with Galileo!!!
>
> So then someone have to continue to stand, to be radical enough to
> accelerate change and transform the world around them so that > oppression
does not occur. Mercy and justice do need to get delivered.
>
> That person has to be able to advocate, mediate and confront, and
> not be part of the institution, yet recognised by it (Hold on, am I
> describing a prophet here?).
Jesus said "And so I tell you that I will send you prophets and wise men and
teachers; you will kill some of them, crucify others, and whip others in the
synagogues and chase them from town to town." (Matthew 23:34, TEV)
This has been quoted to me by several ministers and friends. I'm a teacher
but feel more like Jonah - "Which is the fastest way outta here??? Lemme
go!!!!!"
On one side one tries to explain Christianity to those outside the net of
most Christians. On the other side reformation within the church is so
badly needed. Both sides at your throat wanting blood! Larry Norman (the
Father of Christian Rock ... who is very ill at the moment) was opposed by
the church for being too "rock and roll" and opposed by the rock media for
being too Christian ... yet there would be no CCM without him!
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f022152@no-spam
> "Rowland Croucher" wrote:
<>
> > (Love to have you in my parish, Mark!)
>
>
> I'd love to be there if I could afford to move .... and didn't have family
> commitments in Maitland "The City of Excitement" ;-) We will visit later
as
> we are planning to travel to Adelaide via Melbourne within the next year.
Let's know in advance, and we'll plan a little strategy to educate some nice
Christians here from your story... :-)
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/index.htm
(Now 10,200 + articles!)
"Lawrence Meckan" <lmeckan@no-spam> wrote in message
news:MPG.1966a222d3a76c2898970a@no-spam
> Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> > "Rowland Croucher"
(((i apologise in advance for how haphazard this post is, it's been almost a
year since i was a regular on newsgroups so i'm a little rusty)))
> > > In a sentence, I heard Chris say the Church needs to be far more
> > > creative
> >
> >
> > When the churches have kicked out the truly creative paeople and are now
> > addicted to Jesus Jingles, God Ads and other assorted Christian Kitsch
what
> > hope is there to be creative???
>
> Too true.
>
> Fine arts is not wanted or respected, let alone given a voice within the
> church I'm currently at.
>
> Yet that remains the whole dilemma. Without fine arts, you simply have
> canned "pop" jingles that conform to a certain style (currently
> folk/rock) which is then labelled as "worship music". Anything that
> deviates from that design is then rejected by the powers that be as
> being able to lead people in worship of Christ. (And this is an old
> problem: it happened before with whether rock music was evil or not in
> the early 1900s)
In my personal opinion, there needs to be a greater separation between the
sacred and the secular. I believe that the hype needs to be taken out of
music that is used in services. There is some contemporary Christian music
that may be appropriate for personal listening, yet much of the music that
is used in modern services really doesn't cut the mustard.
> Develop fine artistry, and then you'll have a cultural base to speak to
> people across the suburb, city, nation or world. Not this "We gotta be
> like Hillsong" crap that's currently suckering in a lot of people. It
> suckers them in the following ways:
I live down the road from Hillsong, and all the churches in this area seem
to slowly morph into little mini-Hillsongs, trying to keep up with the
trends, fearful of losing members to them. I remember in a church i used to
go to, i was an assistant youth leader, and there was an occasion when a
youth finally convinced a friend of theirs to come to church. But they were
fearful of bringing their friend along to a small and devout group such as
ours, and instead decided to take their friend along to Hillsong's youth,
feeling that it would be better able to reach her friend. It's a sad day
when hype and sensation is better able to reach the young people of
Australia, than a group who was truly seeking God's spirit to rule in their
lives through study and worship.
> 1) Hillsong are "professional" so others have to do the same. The grace
> of God is at risk of being replaced with a corporate work ethic as the
> prime focus for people serving in ministry within churches.
I think one of the worst things to enter the church in recent years is the
current fascination with the "Prosperity Doctrine". Whatever happened to the
spirit of sacrifice and humility?
> 2) Hillsong are big and powerful in terms of numbers, productions, CDs,
> etc.., so they have a lot of clout in influencing other churches, even
> of other denominations. Therefore, other churches may institutionalise
> Hillsong's behaviours, work model, structures, etc.. within their own
> congregations in an effort to replicate their "success".
Of course, it depends on how a person views success. Success in Christian
circles will always be an impossible thing to judge. People may say Hillsong
is successful because they had a ARIA national number 2 record. They may say
that because they've opened a multi-million dollar auditorium with John
Howard there to open it that they are successful. Maybe they are successful
because Brian Houston was the first pentecostal minister to speak at the
opening of parliment. Maybe just by sheer weight of numbers and financial
stability they are successful.
But to look at these things is to judge a church's success by the world's
standards. Man looks at the interior, yet God looks inside. Only God knows
the validity of Hillsong's ministry. Maybe they really are "touching heaven,
changing earth". Maybe they really are making a difference in this world. Or
maybe they are the merely purporting a cheap form of commericialised
spirituality.
> Bells and whistles attract people, but at the end of the day, if you're
> delivering bells and whistles, you're not delivering the Gospel.
What similarity is their between the "bells and whistles" and the
"resounding gong or a clanging cymbal" of 1 Cor 13? Surely purported this
pop-christian business is showing a lack of real "love" for the
congregation!
> > > What do you make of George Barna's (?) idea that churches
> > > become large _not_ primarily because of their evangelistic
> > > effectiveness or spirituality, but through more effective marketing?
> >
> >
> > One only has to look at the large pentecostal churches to realise that
is
> > true.
>
> Seconded.
I remember reading something about how true evangelism is when a person is
so drawn to the Spirit of God working in our lives that they can't help but
come to know Him personally. Like that classic story of Smith Wigglesworth,
how a man was so challenged by the Spirit of God working in his life that
the man dropped to his knees and said "you convict me of sin". Compare a
story such as this with the emotionalism and hype of the contemporary
church!
> Effective marketing means the "service" has to be "professional",
> anonymous (so not much community), and allow those in the pews to remain
> comfortable otherwise they wouldn't come..
One of my favourite sayings is "Come as you are, but don't stay as you
were". An effective church will always encourage growth and change, and not
pamper.
> All the mega-churches (Pentecostal and others) are doing is providing a
> place for people to catch up in comfortable, non-threatening
> surroundings. (And yes, I have been within such megachurches, so I speak
> from experience).
I remember reading somewhere that the church has moved from being
Christ-centered to being man-centered. This is clearly the root of all the
problems. One way to look at it is that if you come away from church feeling
content or fulfilled, then the service hasn't been effective. To be content
is the wrong way to go about it. We need to be challenged, stretched, and
encouraged to grow further in Christ, to break free of the mediocrity and
monotony that so many churches (and Christians) settle for.
> > > * To what extent does the health and vigour of a church depends on
> > > the enthusiasm-contagion from its leadership?
> >
> > A poor leader can stifle everything.
I find it laughable when some progressive churches claim that they are
better than institutionalised churches, when i've found the leadership
structures are very top-heavy in pentecostal churches as well. An occasion
that i discovered this the hard way was when I was trying to help in
organising a youth rally at my former church (despite my objections to the
senseless hype involved in the rally, i thought i should still be a team
player and help out).
(personal anecdote alert, skip over this if i'm boring you) I have a
background in security and OH&S and event management, and i was trying to
keep all the walkways clear, because moving 1000 kids around means you need
to give them a wide girth. Unfortunately, the state director of my church's
youth ministry wanted to set up a stall in one of the walkways so that kids
could see it as they came in, despite the fact that we had already
designated a space in the cafe for all promotional material to be housed.
The place where he wanted to put the stall was really quite silly because it
was half cutting off the main entrance to the church audi, and i asked him
if he could place his stall out in the cafe area (where all the food and
drinks would be served after the meeting, making it the perfect place to
advertise stuff, because teens being teens, they always go for the food).
Well, he seemed reasonable enough, and decided to comply... until the
assistant pastor of my church stepped in, and gave me a public blasting in
front of many of my fellow organisers and many youth from other churches,
telling me about my lack of respect for authority, and telling me that i'll
never help organise anything in the church ever again. Well, excuse me for
following the plan that my youth pastor had already designated! I was
mortified that the assistant pastor not only gave me such a blasting, but
the fact that he chose to do it in public, and to do it without even knowing
that the state director had agreed with me. It really did show me the ugly
side of how small-minded people can let a little bit of power go to their
head. To ease my suffering, one of the ladies in my church, who witnessed
the whole sorry episode came over to me and simply said "don't worry, we
know who really keeps this church running". It's amazing how many church
leaders really don't appreciate the hard work of the laiety.
> > No, we'd rather have nothing to do with church ever again. The statement
> > wrongly assumes that the victim needs healing when in fact it is the
> > perpetrators that are still existing comfortably within the church (and
> > condoned by the church) that need attention.
>
> Agreed.
>
> The rot is in the churches. Getting them to admit fault however is a
> long and painful process.
>
> lawrence
I remember there being a book called 'Christianarchy' written by a guy who
left YWAM on bad terms. To denounce mainstream churches would certainly be
anarchy, but in many respects it's a rebellion sorely needed.
"Darren" wrote:
> In my personal opinion, there needs to be a greater separation
> between the sacred and the secular.
I think that artificial gap is the whole problem with CCM and church music.
There is NO separation in real life. The secular IS sacred and the sacred
IS secular. ALL of life is God's! There is no artificial divide
whatsoever. This has been the position of Christian artists throughout
time. It is only with the rise of fundamentalism that this divide has
appeared ... and has destroyed a vailfd presence of Christians within the
arts. Again, read Vasari's "Lives of the Artists" or perhaps Frank
Schaeffer's "Addicted To Mediocrity" 20th Century Christians and the Arts"
(son of Francis Schaeffer).
> I believe that the hype needs to be taken out of music that is used in
> services. There is some contemporary Christian music
> that may be appropriate for personal listening, yet much of the music >
that is used in modern services really doesn't cut the mustard.
Music is art and therefore individual and subjective (both of which
autghoritarian fundamentalists churches do not like!). Christians artists
need to be free to create in whatever style and with whatever content they
feel contributes to a good wortk of art. There is NO style of music that is
"Christian". All art created by a Christian is Christian art. Look at the
work of J S Bach. All his music was Christian music though he had different
themes from the religious ("Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring") to the secular
("Coffee Cantata"). Both pieces are Christian works of art as it was
created by a Christian ... namely Bach!
Some of the hymns used were bar room ballads that originally contained
rather spicy lyrics. The lyrics were changed by the music kept so that it
would appeal to those in the church! This is where "music ministry teams"
have been very deceptive and non-edifying to the church and to Christian
artists. They need to read more fully in the history of Christian art which
has always borrowed and adapted. This is one reason why contemporary
Christian art (with a few rare exceptions) is so pathetic and the pinnacle
of bad taste!
> I think one of the worst things to enter the church in recent years is the
> current fascination with the "Prosperity Doctrine". Whatever
> happened to the spirit of sacrifice and humility?
I agree. How much money did Jesus and the disciples make from preaching the
gospel? Mother Teresa must have been pretty bad to die in poverty.
> Maybe they are successful
> because Brian Houston
... and we won't mention the problems with his father Frank Houston ... nor
Brian and Bobby Houston's obsession with using the word "awesome" to
describe everything ....
> pop-christian business is showing a lack of real "love" for the
> congregation!
... and for other Christians involved in the arts.
> I remember reading somewhere that the church has moved from being
> Christ-centered to being man-centered. This is clearly the root of all
> the problems.
It SHOULD be people centred! It should HELP people come into the God
experience. That IS ministry!!!
> (personal anecdote alert, skip over this if i'm boring you) I have a
> background in security and OH&S and event management ...
... which is an important ministry (help) in the church ...
> telling me about my lack of respect for authority
That is ALWAYS the main problem with me! "You don't do as the leaders say
therefore you are a trouble maker headed for hell! Rebellion is as the sin
of witchcraft!" .... but what if the leaders are wrong! ... and then there
is the priesthood of ALL believers .... and a little thing called "personal
integrity".
> It's amazing how many church
> leaders really don't appreciate the hard work of the laiety.
Especially the work done outside the confines of the 4 walls where the real
ministry (help) happens in the real world!
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> > > For a good looking picture on where the rubber hits the road in a
> > > positive way, try www.phuture.org.
> > I liked the article "Traits of Postmodern Worship"
> > http://www.phuture.org/s01_Articles/article.asp?ArticleID=66
>
> I think this sums up both of our positions. It is this we are fighting
> against when we recognise the cultural of the Church.
>
> "Plato has influenced the church. He believed that there was a sacred
> and a secular, and that distinction still lives in the church today.
Actually, that is the misrepresentation of Plato's "ideas" / "forms" by
Aristotle that was later carried on into the church which idolised
Aristotle. Plato said no such thing. (Sorry, Greek Philosophy was my major
for my undergrad degree.)
> Whenever a 'secular' song is sung in church it is sometimes met with the
> thought that we are compromising by allowing something 'worldly' into >
the house of God. This dualism of thinking allows for the great divide
> between the world and the church. It looks negatively on the Arts and >
culture and tries to Christianise everything so as to make it holy.
> Hence Hymns are holier than rock music. Naively forgetting that
> Hymns in their time were considered evil as much of the music was
> taken from the current bar tunes of the time."
This is deja vu!!!! I just wrote that in my previous post before reading
this one!!!!
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> There are currently 3 different definitions of worship at my church:
> 1) Worship as relating to God
> 2) Worship as a service
> 3) Worship as a "professional" expression done by the musos.
I think the first two are legitimate and the third is not.
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> Since the megachurches are pitching "image" and
> corporate infrastructure as the be-all-and-end-all for how they deliver
> their services, performance is now the lowest common denominator for
> whether or not volunteers, laypeople and those outside the recognised
> "leadership" channels are valued.
The utilitarian view of ministry????
> Welcome to middle-class hell. The pews are comfortable, the services are
> slick and can probably beat most live gigs at Telstra Dome in terms of
> lighting and sound, but the Gospel message is secondary.
God interferes with the organised program. ;-)
> It's all about whether you "meet God" in the music these days while
feeling
> comfortable in your surroundings.
The ol' "Muzak Ministry" ... Pious Propaganda Pablum for the Artless! Has
anyone noticed that singing now takes up the majority of the church service
and that the lyrics to these Jesus Jingles DON'T MEAN ANYTHING!!!!! Might
as well sing "la la la la" for an hour (or the Pente Mantra if you are a
pente!).
> (Which is itself heresy: You can meet God anywhere, whether you're
> comfortable or not - the whole omnipresence deal).
My mother told her next door neighbour, a Chinese Christian minister, that
you can speak to God anywhere ...even on the toilet. He used the
illustration in his next sermon.
What IS the church service about?????
If it is worship of God I can do that better without the crappy Jesus
Jingles ANYWHERE! It is the heart attitude that matters. Jesus Jingles
distract from my worship of God. Jesus Jingles make me puke. nausea and
worship are not good bedfellows.
If it is community of believers, how much community can you get in the 10
minutes of coffee after church? I can do that much better in my own home by
inviting someone over.
If it is praise of God, the crappy Jesus Jingles are devoid of true praise.
They have no content. Come over and listen to my extensive cd collection
instead (Van Morrison singing "Be Thou My Vision" ...Mario Lanza singing
"I'll Walk With God" ....U2 singing "Beautiful Day" ... superb!)
If it is to listen to a sermoan, I get information much faster by reading
than by listening. Send me a copy of the sermoan in the mail! Better still
... let me ask questions about the sermoan!!! Give me some interaction.
If it is to celebrate the Eucharist / Communion / God, I'd much rather throw
a party with real alcoholic wine and nice tasting freshly baked bread than
have a thimble of grape juice and a stale cracker.
Now, if church is neither about praise, worship, community, listening to a
sermoan, or celebration of the Eucharist / Communion / God then it could be
about ...................
- Boring oneself on a Sunday
- Power and control
- Collecting money
- Brainwashing
- One or more of the above
- All of the above
(...which reminds me ..I have yet to write a review on "The Wisdom of Each
Other" by Eugene H Peterson ... a book that both inspires and annoys me ...
for various reasons ...my review coming in the next few days ...)
WHAT SHOULD THE CHURCH SERVICE BE ABOUT????????
Mark and Bev Tindall <m_b_tindall@no-spam> wrote:
> "Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
>
> > Since the megachurches are pitching "image" and
> > corporate infrastructure as the be-all-and-end-all for how they deliver
> > their services, performance is now the lowest common denominator for
> > whether or not volunteers, laypeople and those outside the recognised
> > "leadership" channels are valued.
>
> The utilitarian view of ministry????
I think so.
One of the hardest questions to which I've received the most silence
from the leadership where I'm at is:
What is the value of the person in a pew to this church ?
You ask a pastor that, and they *should* be able to tell you about the
whole ecclesia deal, regardless of whether or not the person in the pew
is in ministry, signed up as a member or somehow contributing to the
community. In the megachurches, I don't think that happens (and I've
seen it not happening)..
> > Welcome to middle-class hell. The pews are comfortable, the services are
> > slick and can probably beat most live gigs at Telstra Dome in terms of
> > lighting and sound, but the Gospel message is secondary.
>
> God interferes with the organised program. ;-)
Actually, methinks the pastors at times want exclusive licence as to
where God is at, so they organise the life of the congregation around
their visions.
One of the phrases that saddens me when I meet with fellow believers at
my church is the "Welcome to the house of God" spiel. It's cropping up
more and more these days.
The building, nor the service, is the house of God. Each of us are, and
it gets swept away in preference for a big, flashy lightshow and
"great" worship. People shouldn't remember the songs when they leave
church on Sundays, they should know that they have met with God, since
they are the ecclesia.
>
> > It's all about whether you "meet God" in the music these days while
> > feeling comfortable in your surroundings.
>
> The ol' "Muzak Ministry" ... Pious Propaganda Pablum for the Artless! Has
> anyone noticed that singing now takes up the majority of the church service
> and that the lyrics to these Jesus Jingles DON'T MEAN ANYTHING!!!!! Might
> as well sing "la la la la" for an hour (or the Pente Mantra if you are a
> pente!).
Some do. Kinda scary with the whole "la la la" thing.
>
> > (Which is itself heresy: You can meet God anywhere, whether you're
> > comfortable or not - the whole omnipresence deal).
>
> My mother told her next door neighbour, a Chinese Christian minister, that
> you can speak to God anywhere ...even on the toilet. He used the
> illustration in his next sermon.
>
> What IS the church service about?????
Whatever motives and intentions man puts into it, unfortunately.
Sometimes good, sometimes bad..
> (...which reminds me ..I have yet to write a review on "The Wisdom of Each
> Other" by Eugene H Peterson ... a book that both inspires and annoys me ...
> for various reasons ...my review coming in the next few days ...)
>
> WHAT SHOULD THE CHURCH SERVICE BE ABOUT????????
Christ and man meeting.
lawrence
"Lawrence Meckan" wrote:
> I've just started a business management course and one of the first
> things I've learnt is that to gain maximum efficiency within a business,
> no matter how big or small it is, is to have everyone subscribing to the
> same vision. The same principle applies to a church - it's a group of
> people, after all.
In human resource management the arrangement is:
Planning
Organising
Leading
Controlling
Questions: Who does all this in a church? Who should do this is in a
church?
> It's no wonder that R&D is down the tube in Australia - people are too
> busy being forced to subscribe to management plans than to dream a
> little and cause some changes for the better.
Where is the Research and Development in the church? Who are the dreamers?
It is hard to have either with a congregation of sheeples.
> > Christians out my way still refer to the church building as "the
sanctuary"
> > which is quite apt for a sanctuary is a place of refuge for endangered
> > species of animals.
>
> Well, both you and I seem to be more than just surviving, so I doubt
> we're endangered at the moment..
It's a battle zone and survival is not guaranteed.
>....the total lack of fine art being expressed and
> acknowledged when we meet as a congregation. (And yes, fine art is
> considered redundant and not worth pursuing by the powers that be.)
Show take them to the Sistine Chapel and ask them whether it or a Jesus
Jingle will be remembered in another thousand years.
> > "Fingers in your ears and pray after me ...la la la la la la la
.........I'm
> > living in Hallelujah Land! I'm living where everything is bland! ....la
la
> > la la la la ........."
>
> Have you put it to music yet ?
As a Christian musician I have put several of these paradiesd to music in
the past. All have been banned by pentes / fundamentalists. My most famous
is the Pente Mantra sung to the tune of the Hare Krishna Mantra.
> I think there should be a market for Christian parody out there as yet
> untapped. :)
It is call "Landover Baptist" http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ ...where the
unsaved are unwelcome! There are SO many parallels to churches I've been in
at this site.
We need more Christians like Erasmus, Rabelais and Swift.
So, true. A poor leader can stifle much. However, a congregation with true
spiritual fellowship can make up for a great deal of poor or at least lame
preaching, but it is almost impossible for even the best sermon to overcome
a cold and unfriendly community of faith.
C. Krueger
Ennis, TX