"Andre" <food_crazy@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3EF64B11.4050904@no-spam
Perhaps you should ask Abu/Faris/juno forger why he keeps posting the lies and
half truths that I (and others) respond to, and why he never responds to
criticism. Perhaps YOU should give serious thought to the accuracy of the
responses, instead of retreating into your comfort zone and ignoring them.
OK. I was brought up Christian but am agnostic, as I believe it is the only
intellectually honest position to take. However you may view Jesus (Son of God,
Prophet or Teacher), the Ethics that he taught are indeed something worth living
up to. God cannot be proven (see various attempts - look up "Proofs of God" on
Google), so unless you have had a personal experience to create faith, you must
be agnostic. See the riddle of Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/
Why do I dislike Islam? A great many reasons to dislike it, but a few to
actively oppose it:
1) Islam wants to "convert" (I would say enslave) the entire world. It is not
just a system of personal belief - it wants economic and political control as
well. Over my dead body.
2) It is not content with gentle persuasion - it advocates violence. It divides
the world into two: the "Domain of Islam" and the "Domain of War".
3) It is unjust to women in many ways. Their word is only worth half that of a
man, fornication is usually blamed on the woman, women must dress as men wish,
they are not permitted the same freedoms as men.
4) The life Mohammad is a very poor example of how anyone should live, in
contradistinction to the life of Jesus.
5) The vast majority of Islamic countries are corrupt, poor, uneducated (except
for the western educated elites) and intolerant.
6) The fact that of all the world's religions, only in Islam could vipers like
Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada exist and elicit support.
7) The vitriolic hatred that Arabs, supported by the Quran, have for the Jews.
It all starts with perverted education, such as this:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40. This really is intolerable.
That will do for a start.
> Richard, to you your religion, and to us our religion. Be patient and
> surely we will all find out the truth very soon.
If Islam would keep itself to itself, like Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism,
Zoroastrianism, Zen, Shintoism, Conficianism, Taoism and nearly all Christian
groups (even the "militant" ones disown violence) - no problem. But it cannot.
It wants to take the world back to 622AD. Before 9-11, we in "the West" could
treat Islam with the disdain it merits. After 9-11, Islamism (i.e. militant
Islam) is seen as a threat to us all. And the root and justification for
Islamism, is the Quran. This book is so obviously a tissue of lies, that to stop
Islamism it must be exposed as such by anyone who cares for world peace.
Yes, Andre, you will, I hope, find your truth, but not in the confused fables of
the Quran. You should start by researching the early drafts of the Quran, and
how these evolved into the current "perfect" version. But, unlike Israel, which
has allowed and even encouraged archaeology to search for the roots of the
Bible, I very much doubt if Saudi Arabia will encourage (or even allow) any
scientific studies into the roots of the Quran.
"Andre" <food_crazy@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3EF7A281.1070605@no-spam
Your responses to the riddles of Epicurus are not answers at all. They were
posed 2400 years ago and have never been successfully answered. The point about
them is the the four questions are exclusive - God MUST be one of these options.
You cannot answer them individually. So who is dumb?
> > Why do I dislike Islam? A great many reasons to dislike it, but a few to
> > actively oppose it:
> >
> > 1) Islam wants to "convert" (I would say enslave) the entire world. It is
not
> > just a system of personal belief - it wants economic and political control
as
> > well. Over my dead body.
> Nopes. If you've read the Quran or heard from it, it clearly says (like
> God said through Jesus) that he who wills then it is his choice. He who
> doesn't, ask and then let alone. There is *no* forcing, *no* enslaving
> and *no* capturing. About economical and political control, you should
> and must be aware of the fact that the concept of charity exists in
> Christianity and in any religion for that matter. The concept of Law
> exists in Christianity and any religion for that matter. Similarly, it
> exists in Islam. If you think that's "economical and policitical
> control" then you should be careful to what you say before you get your
> facts straightened. The only "economical control" Islam has is by asking
> muslims to give charity (which is by will and he who can afford to can
> give) and there is "zakat" - an obligatory charity given by every muslim
> to the poor, needy, helpless once a year.. BUT that too is asked to be
> given by he who has a certain amount of assets. There is a threshold set
> for that (which is equivalent to the current price of 85 grams of gold -
> if you have more than this, you are asked to give 2.5% of the money you
> hold *after* you've spent all the money you can on your needs - and if
> you still have more than that threshold, we are asked to give that much
> to the poor and needy). I think that's an excellent way of having an
> economical hold on a country or nation - no person will sleep hungry.
>
> Political control, no idea what you're talking about. If you're refering
> to law and order, then I suggest you give that a read too. You will see
> how perfectly everything makes sense -- having such a strong hold can
> not only make the nation prosper but avoid a lot of complexities any
> nation currently faces. Crime, immorality, injustice and what not.
"no idea what you're talking about". Sheesh!
I am not interested in the Quran, except insofar as it is used to justify the
actions of Muslims who wish to opress, murder, steal and enslave others. Such as
this:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/19/inv.afghanistan.camp/
"Islam must rule the world and until Islam does rule the world we will continue
to sacrifice our lives," Al-Badr spokesman Mustaq Aksari told CNN in an
interview four months ago.
Your personal view toward non-Muslims may well be benevolent, my issue is not
with you. But there are followers of Islam who want to impose Islam on the whole
world, and have no scruples on how they do it. They are not amenable to reason -
they support their philosophy with the Quran. Your response to this question is
naive and completely inadequate.
> > 2) It is not content with gentle persuasion - it advocates violence. It
divides
> > the world into two: the "Domain of Islam" and the "Domain of War".
>
> I have no idea how you've come up with that notion. If you're trying to
> judge a religion on the basis of some few individuals, then you should
> pass judgements to your own nation first by looking at the many
> individuals that have passed before you or those that are doing wrong.
> God asks us to be gentle, patient, loving, calm, sincere, honest and all
> the good you would expect. It advocates no violence. In fact, the Quran
> clearly mentions how violence is an act if disbeleif itself and is
> disliked by God. God asks us to be patient, to be forgiving, to let go
> of those that do bad.. to supress anger. Quran states God hates anger..
> that he who supresses anger is closest to Allah. There's *no* advocation
> of violence.. please don't make things up.
I do not have time to educate you in your lamentable ignorance of your own
culture. Have you never heard of Dar al-Islam, Dar-al-Kufr and the Khilafah?
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=2714&TagID=2
And have a look at this:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,1442,597013,00.html
> > 3) It is unjust to women in many ways. Their word is only worth half that
of a
> > man, fornication is usually blamed on the woman, women must dress as men
wish,
> > they are not permitted the same freedoms as men.
>
> Nopes. There is not such thing as "women must dress as men wish"... NO
> WHERE does the Quran say ANY of the sort!! PLEASE!! AT least DONT make
> up things!! It only describes how one should be modestly dressed so as
> to refrain themselves from immorality. Look at christianity, it says the
> same things!!! Look at nuns! Don't they cover themselves and refrain
> from immoral activities? They're ok but muslim females aren't who *by
> choice* choose to live a modest life. Man has been made impatient (the
> bible and the Quran both mention that) and it is a universal fact how
> indecent exposure can lead to immoral activites between a man and a
> woman. No faith on this planet encourages immorality. Women are
> permitted all the freedom they want, and they are not stopped from work,
> social activies or whatever they wish! Quran only mentions how one (man
> AND woman) should live a moral modest life - NOTHING MORE!
Did you not read of the 15 Saudi schoolgirls who burnt to death when the
religious police would not let them out of a burning school because they were
not wearing Islamic headscarves and black robes?
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F03%2F15%2Fwsaud15.xml
> > 4) The life Mohammad is a very poor example of how anyone should live, in
> > contradistinction to the life of Jesus.
>
> Give me ONE example which would show us how poor his life is as an
> example. Mohammad was the most honest, pious, down to earth, just man
> who was born on the face of this earth. If you talk about wars, then
> refer to my comments above about the war that Makkans and Muslims. No
> country in this world would sit there while they're being killed and
> tortured or attacked. They were attacked, and muslims defended. No man
> was hurt when Makkah was conquered. No tree was cut down. No woman or
> child was hurt. Any man who took refuge in his house was let alone.
> Captives were treated nicely and were asked to give education to muslim
> children instead of hurting them - and many many converted to islam. I
> don't know on what base you're making the assumptions you're making.
The man was a deranged and murderous bandit. That he committed murder, theft and
genocide is not in dispute.
There is a mass of detail on his exploits, such as here:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar1.html. I have not heard ANYONE
on this NG dispute the accuracy of these reports.
> > 5) The vast majority of Islamic countries are corrupt, poor, uneducated
(except
> > for the western educated elites) and intolerant.
>
> Corruption has nothing to do with Islam or the religion. Islam does not
> advocate corruption - that's mans' free will. If a christian kills
> people and beats his mother when he gets back home, he's not a christian
> is he? You can't make judgements on a religion like that! Poor and
> uneducated has everything to do with corruption and the people that are
> running the countries, NOT the religion. Intolerant, probably... know
> why? Because of the type of comments you lot have to give about us. Like
> the ignorant ones you've given so far.
Nothing to do with Islam? Just a coincidence, is it? Islam underwrites the
culture that prevents these countries developing to anything like their full
potential.
> > 6) The fact that of all the world's religions, only in Islam could vipers
like
> > Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada exist and elicit support.
>
> What does Islam has to do with that?
Name any Religious leader in ANY OTHER religion who says anything like what
these people say.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,910030,00.html
> > 7) The vitriolic hatred that Arabs, supported by the Quran, have for the
Jews.
> > It all starts with perverted education, such as this:
>
> FOrget Arabs. Talk about Quran and God here. Quran is all that a muslims
> should know and believe. Anything more or less is their own choice and
> opinion. Do not make such wild assumptions. I'm a muslim, I have no
> problem or hatred with jews, hindues, christians or anyone. Want to
> judge ALLLll the muslims based on me then? Why not? Why won't you change
> your opinion on allll the muslims based on what I just said. The Quran
> asks muslims to treat no one with a 'less' degree. It says that anyone
> with even a spec of pride is not a believer. Pride comes when you start
> thinking of yourselves superior or better than the rest. A muslims does
> not and should not hate anyone. Don't judge the religion, make
> individual judgements and curse those who curse - not the whole lot.
Forget Arabs ... [sigh]
Dear God, Andre, where do you think Islam comes from? Where is Mecca? What
culture did Mohammad come from? What language did he speak? Islam is steeped in
Arab culture.
Have a look at what Palestinian schoolbooks are teaching.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40
"Jihad - already in the 2nd grade, Palestinian pupils learn that Jordanian young
men are eager to sacrifice their lives for the jihad, to defend the Arab
character of Palestine. Another textbook states that the Arabs and the Muslims
will fight the Jews who evicted them from their homes. In the 8th grade, the
students learn that the usurpers have crossed all boundaries and therefore the
time has come for jihad, to unsheathe the sharp sword."
> >>Richard, to you your religion, and to us our religion. Be patient and
> >>surely we will all find out the truth very soon.
> >
> >
> > If Islam would keep itself to itself,
>
> It does - it's just that YOU don't know that.
Here is a list of 378 terrorist groups, the majority of which are Islamic.
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/
<snip>
> > Yes, Andre, you will, I hope, find your truth,
>
> No Richard. You're the one who needs to do the findings.
>
> > but not in the confused fables of the Quran.
>
> Don't make false, inaccurate, wild assumptions about something you
> haven't thoroughly understood or have had the ability to understand.
> From what I've read so far of what you had to say, I can tell how less
> you know about the Quran, the muslims and islam and yet you go on making
> assumptions based on what your class mate told you.
>
> > You should start by researching the early drafts of the Quran, and
>
> There are no 'drafts' of the Quran. There is one and only one authentic
> original copy of the Quran. Quran never changed, has never changed and
> never will change. Pick up two qurans from either corner of the world
> from wither centuries and you'll find them exact and perfect. The bible
> however has been "revised" again and again.
Oh, no?
"Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the
seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were
fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's
more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the
standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual
historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the
Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and
unchanging Word of God."
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html
> > But, unlike Israel, which has allowed and even encouraged archaeology to
search for the roots
>
> One only does that when one has doubts. There are no doubts for the
> Quran, and we have no one to prove to. Those who have their doubts
> should clear them theirselves and they'll know how wrong their efforts were.
Then there is no arguing with you as you have a closed mind and are in total
denial. I am sure you mean well, but you are simplistic and naive, even of
aspects of your own culture, and many of your faith most definitely do not mean
non-Muslims (especially Jews) well at all.
I have seen how you have argued with others in this forum - you have no answers
to the points posed to you - you just keep repeating the same points you made
before and commit every logical fallacy in the book. I shall not waste my time
by responding to you again.
"jackkincaid" <theovermind@no-spam> wrote in message
news:eb35fbed.0306241400.2155617d@no-spam
> Andre <food_crazy@no-spam> wrote in message
news:<3EF7A281.1070605@no-spam>...
>
> > Like I said, we are no one to judge God (if you surely take Him as the
> > Creator).
>
> God is an invention. An invention f man. We are man (and woman).
> Therefore we are all there is to judge God.
You said man and women.
My question is why did you support same-sex marrage? And what is the woman
role? why she exist? Just to be raped? Did you know that in USA there is
one rape in every 3 minutes according to an online report?
(SNIP)
> > God is an invention. An invention f man. We are man (and woman).
> > Therefore we are all there is to judge God.
>
> You said man and women.
> My question is why did you support same-sex marrage?
Why do think jews are dirty bastards?
And what is the woman
> role?
The woman's role in Islam? She has to make sure there are four male
witnesses to prove a rape took place. Sounds pretty unfair - doesn't it?
Where as in the west she only needs to go to a hospital where DNA can be
extracted (infidels developed DNA testing, doncha know) and medical tests
done confirming conclusively that she was raped.
No 'four men'. No prejudicial 'she had it coming' mentality. No stoning if
she gets pregnant from it.
"Blondes Gaulloises" <blondes_gaulloises@no-spam> wrote in message news:<QH4Ka.2932$Fe3.499496@no-spam>...
>
> You said man and women.
Yeah.
> My question is why did you support same-sex marrage?
Was that your question? I don't think I do 'support' same sex marriage
- I support the same legal rights for gay couples as straight couples,
I suppose, except possibly pertaining to the adoption of children, and
I've nothing against secular services for gay couples in registry
offices. As far as religious marriages go, I think the right to be
married in a church or mosque or whatever depends on the vicar, imam
or whatever in question. Since I'm an atheist this doesn't really
concern me.
> And what is the woman role?
In a marriage? That's one hell of a complicated question.
> why she exist?
Why do wmen exist? Because humans, like most animals, have evolved to
have two sexes. There are good scientific reasons for this - any more
sexes thgan two becomes complicated; a single sexed human would be
impossible, I think, because you can't 'bud' a human brain.
Are we off-topic yet?
> Just to be raped?
Wha?
> Did you know that in USA there is
> one rape in every 3 minutes according to an online report?
Sounds like shite to me. What has this to do with anything?