The Listener
Vol 189 No 3296 (July 12 2003)
That petition
Editorial, Finlay MacDonald
The absence of shocking stories about satanic ritual abuse (SRA) in
the past decade is an interesting aspect of the Peter Ellis case.
Unless you've been kidnapped and brainwashed by Satanists yourself,
you must recall that the Christchurch Civic Creche was believed by
some to have been a den of evil, with Ellis its monstrous ringleader.
It followed a pattern set in the United States, where the "study" and
prosecution of alleged SRA had become a psychiatric industry in its
own right.
Since then, however, this phenomenon, which spawned its own
literature, conferences, support groups and countless court cases,
appears to have disappeared. How could that be? One wouldn't normally
assume that Satan's slaves were quite so sensitive to our temporal
laws as to be deterred by a mere prison sentence. Or is this, in fact,
evidence of one small victory in the eternal war between good and
evil? There must be some explanation for the disappearance of shocking
headlines and terrifying tales of dungeons, tunnels, cages, blood and
beatings.
There are those, of course, who put this down to satanic ritual abuse,
or just plain ritual abuse, having been figments of collective
hysteria in the first place. They are supported in this belief by the
general debunking and discrediting of such claims and cases overseas.
And, among many other things, the link between foreign ritual abuse
panics and the case of Peter Ellis is made by the organisers of a
petition recently presented to Parliament, which asks for a royal
commission into all aspects of his conviction.
Along with several other practitioners of my trade, and a large number
of far more eminent personages, I signed the petition. There are those
who believe that this compromises some notion of editorial
independence, but I would argue that the only bias it betrays is one
in favour of examining all the facts pertaining to the Ellis case and
clearing up once and for all a festering legal and moral sore.
Obviously this is motivated by a deep suspicion that something has
gone wrong; the petition is about Ellis's conviction being beyond
reasonable doubt, and its signatories harbour very reasonable doubts
that it was.
What makes Peter Ellis's journey through the justice system doubly
remarkable is that he is, still, a convicted child abuser. It would be
hard to think of another class of criminal less likely to inspire
sympathy or support in their quest for vindication. So there has to be
something else working in his favour. And, as this petition and the
various appeals before it have suggested, it is the clear impression
left by an examination of the events surrounding the creche case that
such a conviction would be virtually impossible to secure now. Not
least, perhaps, because of the aforementioned calm that has since
mysteriously descended on the devil's playground
There are those, I suspect, who see in the tenacious pursuit of the
case some other kinds of conspiracy; an anti-feminist agenda, perhaps,
or a disregard for the rights of children. The first accusation
probably stems from author Lynley Hood's examination of extreme
doctrinaire feminism as contextual background in her book A City
Possessed, but it would be a long bow indeed to equate that with her
campaign's actual motivation. As for the children, a respect for their
rights cuts both ways, and it certainly doesn't extend to believing
that they never lie or are mistaken or suggestible (except,
conveniently, when they recant damning testimony).
The Justice Minister has long refused to accept the need for a new
inquiry, pointing to a supposed lack of new evidence. But that is to
argue that the case was built on proper evidence in the first place,
when we all know there was none, only the uncorroborated, videotaped
testimony of poorly interviewed young children. Are those QCs;
barristers, law professors and former prime ministers on the petition
wrong to be concerned, Mr Goff?
But let's not turn our scepticism into any lack of sympathy for those
who continue to think that justice was done. Four years ago, in an
interview in this magazine, Ellis's mother Lesley said this: "It must
be a nightmare for the ones who really believe. They must say, 'Won't
it ever go away, so we can get on with our lives?' " Honestly, they
are not alone.
"paulsy" <paulsy@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f07b1ce.20053833@no-spam
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 22:29:34 +1200, "Roger Dewhurst"
> <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
>
> >Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
> >that Ellis is guilty?
>
> Maybe Chris Carter? He seems to be keeping pretty quiet about the
> subject. I know he didn't or doesn't want to be exclusively seen to
> be a homosexual representative but can he at least be something more
> than Helen's poofter bag carrier?
I thought that she had a poofter closer to hand!
R
In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
Care to try that again in English?
In nz.general Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@no-spam> wrote:
> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
>> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
> Care to try that again in English?
Try leaving out `only' and `last', and `in the country'.
I have been arguing about jury nullification: where juries refuse to
convict when they feel the law is acting unfairly. That is not overturned
by a judge but, at least in USA, a judge can overturn an unsafe conviction
by a jury.
Jury nullification is a statement by the ordinary citizens about the
insufficiency of the working of law as the people see it. The laws
are sometimes changed in consequence.
Now the judge did not overturn this conviction. What were his or
her comments to the jury?
Is this conviction being perpetuated as a statement, parallel to
nullification?
In nz.general Brian Sandle <bsandle@no-spam> wrote:
> In nz.general Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@no-spam> wrote:
>> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>>> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
>>> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
>> Care to try that again in English?
> Try leaving out `only' and `last', and `in the country'.
Nope, still doesn't parse.
"Geoff McCaughan" <geoffm@no-spam> wrote in message
news:5t5Oa.70893$JA5.1283594@no-spam
> In nz.general Brian Sandle <bsandle@no-spam> wrote:
> > In nz.general Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@no-spam> wrote:
> >> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>
> >>> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
> >>> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
>
> >> Care to try that again in English?
>
> > Try leaving out `only' and `last', and `in the country'.
>
> Nope, still doesn't parse.
I think Bisman is trying to say, in a garbled fashion, "Everyone conscripted
to reach a verdict on behalf of the country".
What would happen to a juror who publicly announces now "On the basis of
what I have subsequently read and discovered I would change my verdict to
NOT GUILTY. I believe that the evidence put before me was not the whole
truth."
R
In nz.general Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
> "Geoff McCaughan" <geoffm@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:5t5Oa.70893$JA5.1283594@no-spam
>> In nz.general Brian Sandle <bsandle@no-spam> wrote:
>> > In nz.general Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@no-spam> wrote:
>> >> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>> >>> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
>> >>> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
>>
>> >> Care to try that again in English?
>>
>> > Try leaving out `only' and `last', and `in the country'.
>>
>> Nope, still doesn't parse.
> I think Bisman is trying to say, in a garbled fashion, "Everyone conscripted
> to reach a verdict on behalf of the country".
Yes, meaning 1 rather than 8.
Linkname: Hypertext Webster Gateway at UCSD
URL:
http://smac.ucsd.edu/cgi-bin/http_webster?isindex=charge&method=exact
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)
Charge \Charge\, n. [F. charge, fr. charger to load. See {Charge}, v.
t., and cf. {Cargo}, {Caricature}.]
1. A load or burder laid upon a person or thing.
8. An accusation of a wrong of offense; allegation; indictment;
specification of something alleged.
> What would happen to a juror who publicly announces now "On the basis of
> what I have subsequently read and discovered I would change my verdict to
> NOT GUILTY. I believe that the evidence put before me was not the whole
> truth."
At least in Britain the counsel for the defence must share the info they
have with the prosecution. The responsibility to the court is greater than
to the client. But I don't think the info has to be given at the trial.
The idea is that the adversary system is supposed to probe the evidence
better than the inquisitorial system, but I think rather the stronger
counsel wins.
In the Continental inquisitorial system a combination of judges and lay
people decide the the case, having asked questions of the witnesses.
People are always being wrongly punished. Innoncents are killed in war
between their rulers.
School children en-masse are penalised when guilty members of their class
will not own up. That can be a lesser evil than an undisciplined situation
where everyone is learning less. But there needs to be a better way.
"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@no-spam> wrote in message
news:1057551360.109345@no-spam
> In nz.general Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > "Geoff McCaughan" <geoffm@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:5t5Oa.70893$JA5.1283594@no-spam
> >> In nz.general Brian Sandle <bsandle@no-spam> wrote:
> >> > In nz.general Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@no-spam> wrote:
> >> >> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>
>
> > What would happen to a juror who publicly announces now "On the basis of
> > what I have subsequently read and discovered I would change my verdict
to
> > NOT GUILTY. I believe that the evidence put before me was not the whole
> > truth."
>
> At least in Britain the counsel for the defence must share the info they
> have with the prosecution. The responsibility to the court is greater than
> to the client. But I don't think the info has to be given at the trial.
> The idea is that the adversary system is supposed to probe the evidence
> better than the inquisitorial system, but I think rather the stronger
> counsel wins.
A year or so ago I observed a trial in Rotorua. The defendant was charged
with assaulting his de-facto wife. The defendant's barrister was useless,
less than useless indeed, an impediment to the defence. He appeared either
sick, drunk or under the influence of drugs, or any combination of these.
The only evidence for the defence was presented by the defendant himself who
appeared to me to be a good deal more credible than the prosecution witness,
his de-facto wife! The prosecution lawyer made much of the 'fact' that the
defence had not told him what the defence was! Basically, of course, the
defence was that the prosecution case was a load of BS. As an independent
observer that was my view too. There was no objective evidence other than
that from a policeman who examined the site of the event. Other than
confirming that someone had soused the place with a hose, he added nothing
in terms of objective evidence. At the end of the day there were two
witnesses, the woman who alleged that she had been assaulted and the
defendant who said that the complainant, drunk, fell on the fireplace when
he attempted to restrain her from squirting him with a hose. The
complainant admitted that the defendant did not know that she had suffered a
burn from the fire!
>
> In the Continental inquisitorial system a combination of judges and lay
> people decide the the case, having asked questions of the witnesses.
If they manage to determine the facts of the case it appears to me to be a
better system. I am not impressed by a system in which people are convicted
because their lawyers are drunk, drugged or inept, or at least more so than
those of the prosecution.
R
Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote
> Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
> that Ellis is guilty?
Greg Dowle and Barry Hopkinson also think so.
- Dave
--
Lowering the tone of Usenet since 1997...
Please send replies to New Zealand instead of Zanzibar.
Sorry, but the spam is just getting a little too much...
David Bisman wrote:
> "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote in message news:<be8tle$o81$1@no-spam>...
>
>>Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
>>that Ellis is guilty?
>>
>
> As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
> our justice system to make that determination on our behalf. They,
> over the course of the deposition hearings, trials, appeals and
> reviews have been unanimous and they have heard all the legal
> arguments which NONE of Ellis' supporters have.
>
> Things that make you go "HMMMmmmmm!"
>
> Cheers
> David Bisman
> Dunedin
> New Zealand
From what I know about the case the fundamental issue is whether the
more bizarre allegations of some of the children should have admitted as
evidence. Those that support Ellis argue that it should have been since
it goes towards the credibility of the children. Those that don't argue
that such evidence is irrelevant and have nothing to do with what Ellis
was found guilty of. The Court of Appeal, as you know, agreed with the
latter.
Geoff McCaughan wrote:
> In nz.general David Bisman <dbisman@no-spam> wrote:
>
>
>>As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
>>our justice system to make that determination on our behalf.
>
>
> Care to try that again in English?
The jury.
On 6 Jul 2003 15:31:40 -0700, dbisman@no-spam (David Bisman)
wrote:
>"Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote in message news:<be8tle$o81$1@no-spam>...
>> Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
>> that Ellis is guilty?
>>
>As far as I can tell only every last person in the country charged by
>our justice system to make that determination on our behalf. They,
>over the course of the deposition hearings, trials, appeals and
>reviews have been unanimous and they have heard all the legal
>arguments which NONE of Ellis' supporters have.
What the hell does the above babble mean? If it translates to: The
rule of law has proven he's guilty" try telling it to AA Thomas and
the others who have had a "fair trial"
But anyway, try telling us what you mean.
>Things that make you go "HMMMmmmmm!"
What does HMMMmmmmm mean? Judicial system screwed up again?
Dave Joll wrote:
> Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote
>
> > Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
> > that Ellis is guilty?
>
> Greg Dowle and Barry Hopkinson also think so.
And more power to them.
It doesn't absolutely matter whether Ellis was a sexo but whether he should
have been convicted on the evidence given.
JC
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:35:58 +1200, John Cawston <rewarewa@no-spam>
wrote:
>Dave Joll wrote:
>
>> Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote
>>
>> > Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
>> > that Ellis is guilty?
>>
>> Greg Dowle and Barry Hopkinson also think so.
>
>And more power to them.
>
>It doesn't absolutely matter whether Ellis was a sexo but whether he should
>have been convicted on the evidence given.
A much more important question in my opinion is whether the right
evidence was given. I am persuaded that it was not.
"Brian Harmer" <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote in message
news:abeigvkuf1pj08aqm8so6df80gb7rtegr5@no-spam
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:35:58 +1200, John Cawston <rewarewa@no-spam>
> wrote:
>
> >Dave Joll wrote:
> >
> >> Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote
> >>
> >> > Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who
think
> >> > that Ellis is guilty?
> >>
> >> Greg Dowle and Barry Hopkinson also think so.
> >
> >And more power to them.
> >
> >It doesn't absolutely matter whether Ellis was a sexo but whether he
should
> >have been convicted on the evidence given.
>
> A much more important question in my opinion is whether the right
> evidence was given. I am persuaded that it was not.
As I recall a person giving evidence is required to swear that he is telling
'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. I recall too that
the judge stopped the whole truth being presented.
R
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:19:14 +1200, "Roger Dewhurst"
<dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
>
>"Brian Harmer" <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote in message
>news:abeigvkuf1pj08aqm8so6df80gb7rtegr5@no-spam
>> A much more important question in my opinion is whether the right
>> evidence was given. I am persuaded that it was not.
>
>As I recall a person giving evidence is required to swear that he is telling
>'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. I recall too that
>the judge stopped the whole truth being presented.
Agreed, but I think there is more to "the whole truth" than the
evidence of any one person, and our adversarial system of justice
seems to encourage prosecutors to present that which damages and
withhold that which exonerates. There is something to be said for the
French inquisitorial system where the objective is nominally, to find
out what happened, rather than to see who is the cleverer lawyer.
"Brian Harmer" <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote in message
news:7ofigv4l96ih8blgt366hkjj61f288puc5@no-spam
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:19:14 +1200, "Roger Dewhurst"
> <dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Brian Harmer" <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote in message
> >news:abeigvkuf1pj08aqm8so6df80gb7rtegr5@no-spam
>
> >> A much more important question in my opinion is whether the right
> >> evidence was given. I am persuaded that it was not.
> >
> >As I recall a person giving evidence is required to swear that he is
telling
> >'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. I recall too
that
> >the judge stopped the whole truth being presented.
>
> Agreed, but I think there is more to "the whole truth" than the
> evidence of any one person, and our adversarial system of justice
> seems to encourage prosecutors to present that which damages and
> withhold that which exonerates. There is something to be said for the
> French inquisitorial system where the objective is nominally, to find
> out what happened, rather than to see who is the cleverer lawyer.
I am inclined to agree with you. I certainly think that judges should not
be allowed to suppress evidence.
R
>
>
In article <7ofigv4l96ih8blgt366hkjj61f288puc5@no-spam>,
Brian Harmer <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote:
> Agreed, but I think there is more to "the whole truth" than the
> evidence of any one person, and our adversarial system of justice
> seems to encourage prosecutors to present that which damages and
> withhold that which exonerates. There is something to be said for the
> French inquisitorial system where the objective is nominally, to find
> out what happened, rather than to see who is the cleverer lawyer.
I wonder how you would go if your lawyer routinely asked the prosecution
"Is there anything you know that should be brought to the attention of
this court?" If they answer "No" and it subsequently transpires that
they had been suppressing evidence that might have exonerate the
accused, they would of course be liable for a charge of perjury.
Might sharpen their act up a bit.
~ Ian O
"Ian O" <I.Orchard@no-spam> wrote in message
news:I.Orchard-F2B923.00081308072003@no-spam
> In article <7ofigv4l96ih8blgt366hkjj61f288puc5@no-spam>,
> Brian Harmer <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote:
>
> > Agreed, but I think there is more to "the whole truth" than the
> > evidence of any one person, and our adversarial system of justice
> > seems to encourage prosecutors to present that which damages and
> > withhold that which exonerates. There is something to be said for the
> > French inquisitorial system where the objective is nominally, to find
> > out what happened, rather than to see who is the cleverer lawyer.
>
> I wonder how you would go if your lawyer routinely asked the prosecution
> "Is there anything you know that should be brought to the attention of
> this court?" If they answer "No" and it subsequently transpires that
> they had been suppressing evidence that might have exonerate the
> accused, they would of course be liable for a charge of perjury.
>
> Might sharpen their act up a bit.
Where would you find a lawyer prepared to drop a fellow lawyer in the shit?
R
>
> ~ Ian O
Brian Harmer wrote:
>
> A much more important question in my opinion is whether the right
> evidence was given. I am persuaded that it was not.
The most disturbing thing about the Civic case, to, me, was that there
was no evidence. The court case amounted to more than 200 rulings by
the judge to stop the jury hearing how the "allegations" came about.
There was no evidence, though much was sought but never found. The
fact that the jury was not allowed to hear that there was no evidence
is, to me, a travesty of the justice system I so strongly support.
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:08:14 +1200, Ian O
<I.Orchard@no-spam> wrote:
>In article <7ofigv4l96ih8blgt366hkjj61f288puc5@no-spam>,
> Brian Harmer <brian.harmer@no-spam> wrote:
>
>> Agreed, but I think there is more to "the whole truth" than the
>> evidence of any one person, and our adversarial system of justice
>> seems to encourage prosecutors to present that which damages and
>> withhold that which exonerates. There is something to be said for the
>> French inquisitorial system where the objective is nominally, to find
>> out what happened, rather than to see who is the cleverer lawyer.
>
>I wonder how you would go if your lawyer routinely asked the prosecution
>"Is there anything you know that should be brought to the attention of
>this court?" If they answer "No" and it subsequently transpires that
>they had been suppressing evidence that might have exonerate the
>accused, they would of course be liable for a charge of perjury.
>
>Might sharpen their act up a bit.
>
>~ Ian O
Maybe, but more likely the judge would prohibit such a line of
questioning. The judges, as senior fellows of the best good'ole'boys
club in the world, would not want to mess up their system. The same
system that supports outrageous fees, courtroom showmanship, huge egos
and generally gets you the best justice that your limited funds can
buy.
Law Prof to new law students: "Young men and women, you will spend the
next 4 years learning about the complexities of the law. If you want
to learn about justice, then you are in the wrong place!"
Barry Lennox
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 22:29:34 +1200, "Roger Dewhurst"
<dewhurst@no-spam> wrote:
>Is there anyone else in NZ apart from Goofy, Dalziel and Bisman who think
>that Ellis is guilty?
Perhaps the following people, based on recent public contributions:
Sandra Coney (An Unfortunate Experiment)
John Read (from Auckland University)
Suzanne George (Dunedin resident)
Roger McClay (Commissioner for Children)
Ian Hassall (Past Commissioner for Children)
G Dale, (Past Chairman, Support Network for Sexually Abused Children)
Mark Peck (Invercargill MP)
Linkname: FBI STUDY OF CHILDHOOD RITUAL ABUSE, PART 5
URL: http://www.religioustolerance.org/fbi_05.htm
size: 503 lines
[...]
In addition, in none of the cases of which I am aware has any evidence
of a well-organized satanic cult been found. Many of those who accept
the stories of organized ritual abuse of children and human sacrifice
will tell you that the best evidence they now have is the consistency
of stories from all over America. It sounds like a powerful argument.
It is interesting to note that, without having met each other, the
hundreds of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens from
outer space also tell stories and give descriptions of the aliens that
are similar to each other. This is not to imply that allegations of
child abuse are in the same category as allegations of abduction by
aliens from outer space. It is intended only to illustrate that
individuals who never met each other can sometimes describe similar
events without necessarily having experienced them.
[...]
If and when therapists come to believe the patient or decide the
law requires it, the police or FBI are sometimes contacted to
conduct an investigation. The therapists may also fear for their
safety because they now know the "secret". The therapists will
frequently tell law enforcement that they will stake their
professional reputation on the fact that their patient is telling
the truth.
[...]