"Redbaiter" <don't@no-spam> wrote:
>Was there a 1st?
>
>--
A VERY good question!!!
=======
THE HOLOCAUST STORY: How Much is False? The Case for Open Debate
By BRADLEY R. SMITH
THE CONTEMPORARY ISSUE
No subject enrages America's thought police more than Holocaust
revisionism. The politically correct line on the Holocaust story
is, simply, it happened. You don't debate "it." You do debate every
other historical event of course, but the Holocaust is an
exception. If someone does express doubt about some aspect of the
Holocaust story, it's politically correct to respond with outrage,
contempt and guilt-by-association smear tactics. We used to call
that behavior McCarthy-ite. Now we say it's "progressive."
The Holocaust lobby claims that it is a social good when ideology
replaces free inquiry, intimidation represses open debate, and when
the ideals of the university itself are exchanged for intellectual
taboos and not-so-secret political agendas. Let's ask these people
-- what makes such behavior a social good? Who benefits?
THE HISTORICAL ISSUE
For half a century it has been asserted that during World War II
the German State had a policy to "exterminate" the Jews and other
peoples of Europe in execution gas chambers. This allegation was
institutionalized at the great Nuremberg trial, led by the Soviets
and the U.S. While the proceedings at Nuremberg were politically
correct, the evidence supports the then Chief Justice of the U.S.
Supreme court, Harlan Fiske Stone, who called the Nuremberg court
simply "a lynching party for Germans." Mainline Holocaust
historians are under considerable pressure from Revisionist
scholarship to address the more blatant examples of Holocaust fraud
and falsehood. Increasingly, academics are committing themselves to
publishing their own revisions of the orthodox Holocaust story. The
"rewriting" of the Holocaust story has begun in earnest.
Auschwitz
Arno J. Mayer, chaired professor of European history at Princeton
University, has written in his Why Did The Heavens Not Darken?,
that at Auschwitz more people died of "natural causes" than were
killed. Mayer is a Jew and himself a refugee from the Nazi regime.
British historian David Irving, perhaps the most widely read
historian writing in English, has called the Auschwitz death-camp
story a "sinking ship" and states that there were "no gas chambers
at Auschwitz..." Yehuda Bauer, Director of Holocaust Studies at
Hebrew University in Jerusalem, states that it is "patently false"
that 4 million Jews and others were killed at Auschwitz.
The Auschwitz State Museum has "revised" its half-century-old claim
that 4-million humans were killed there. The Museum now says maybe
it was 1 million. What documentary evidence does the Museum proffer
for the 1 million figure? None. The 4 million number was engraved
in stone at Auschwitz where it has been seen by millions of
tourists. What to do? A workman was ordered to chisel out the 4
million number. Nothing to it, really. History in the making. But
where have those 3 million souls been the last 45 years? And why is
no one celebrating?
The Leuchter Report contains the results of the first-ever forensic
examination of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz. The Report is
the work of Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter. It concludes that no
mass gassings ever did or ever could have taken place in so-called
gas chambers. The chemical analysis used in the Report was
performed by the Alpha Analytical Laboratories in Ashland MA. Fred
Leuchter has called for an international commission of scientists
and historians to investigate the so-called gas chambers of
Auschwitz.
Winston Churchill wrote his monumental six-volume history of World
War II without mentioning the "gas chambers" or the "extermination"
of the Jews. Maybe it slipped his mind. On the other hand, maybe
not. Dwight D. Eisenhower, in his memoir Crusade in Europe, also
forgot to mention the "gas chambers." Why wasn't the weapon used to
murder 6 million Jews worthy of a passing reference? Was our future
president being "insensitive" to Jews?
"The Photographs"
We've all seen "The Photographs." Endlessly. Newsreel photos taken
by U.S. and British photographers at the liberation of the German
camps, and especially the awful scenes at Dachau, Buchenwald and
Bergen-Belsen. We have seen them so many times over four decades we
don't even have to ask what "they" are. They're "The Photographs."
These documents are typically presented in a way where it is either
stated or implied that the scenes resulted from deliberate policies
on the part of the Germans. The documents are real. The uses to
which they are put are base. There was no German policy at any of
those camps to deliberately kill the internees. In the last months
of the war Soviet armies were advancing on Germany from the east.
The British and U.S. air arms were destroying every major city in
Germany saturation bombing. Transportation, the food distribution
system and medical and sanitation services all broke down. That was
the purpose of the Allied bombing, which has been described as the
most barbarous form of warfare in Europe since the Mongol
invasions. It was successful.
Millions of refugees fleeing the Soviet armies were pouring into
Germany. The camps still under German control were overwhelmed with
internees from the eastern camps. By early 1945 the inmate
population was swept by malnutrition and by epidemics of typhus,
typhoid, dysentery and chronic diarrhea. Even the mortuary systems
broke down. When the press entered the camps with British and U.S.
soldiers, they found the results of all that. They took "The
Photographs."
The Allied propaganda machine laboring furiously to produce anti-
German hate propaganda. "The Photographs" became their most
successful tools. Today the same tools are still being used to
"educate" Americans. Still, at Buchenwald, Dachau and Bergen-Belsen
tens of thousands of healthy internees were liberated. They were
there in the camps when "The Photographs" were taken. There are
newsreels of these internees walking through camp streets laughing
and talking. Others show joyful, well-fed internees throwing their
caps in the air and cheering their liberators. You haven't seen
those films and photographs, you say? Why do you think that is?
Does it suggest to you questions, about the camps that are not
politically correct to ask?
The Dachau "Gas Chambers"
In the first years after the war there was much eyewitness
testimony about "mass gassings" at Dachau. In his summing up for
the prosecution at Nuremberg, Sir Hartley Shawcross, chief
prosecutor for Great Britain, spoke of murder "conducted like some
mass production industry in the gas chamber (s) of... Dachau...."
Today no responsible scholar attempts to claim that there were mass
gassing at Dachau. Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center for Holocaust Studies, states simply: "There were no gas
chambers at Dachau."
The Jewish Soap Story
This ugly rumor has been repeated endlessly in our media and
universities. First Amendment scholar Nat Hentoff can write
seriously that he has seen human soap made from the "tissues of
murdered Jews" displayed on stone tablets in the Chamber of the
Holocaust in Jerusalem. Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer and Jewish-
American historians like Raul Hilberg and Deborah Lipstadt all
state that this anti-German hate story is untrue. Lipstadt writes:
"The Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone
else, for the production of soap."
"Eyewitness" Testimony
As documentary "proofs" mass-murder of the European Jews fall by
the wayside, Holocaust historians depend increasingly on
"eyewitness" testimonies to support their theories. Many of these
testimonies are ludicrously unreliable.
Shmuel Krakowski is archives director for Yad Vashem, which is the
international center for Holocaust documentation in Jerusalem.
Krakowski states that more than 10,000 "eyewitness" testimonies
about German atrocities against Jews have been shown to be false at
Yad Vashem alone!
"Human Skin" Lamp Shades
Uncounted Hollywood epics and "eyewitness" testimonies accuse
Germans of skinning Jews to make lamp shades from their hides.
General Lucius D. Clay, Military Governor of the U.S. Occupation
Zone of Germany (1947-49) discovered that the infamous "human skin"
lamp shades found at Buchenwald were actually made of "goat" skin.
Which of your professors has denounced this cheap anti-German
bigotry for what it is?
THE FREE INQUIRY ISSUE
Students and professors alike should be free to investigate the
Holocaust story in the same way they are free to examine every
other historical event. This is not a radical point of view. The
premises for it were worked out three centuries ago during a little
something called the Enlightenment. The tools used to arrive at
historical understanding are useless without the rights of Free
Inquiry and Open Debate. We are told that it is "anti-Jewish" to
question orthodox assertions about German criminality. Yet we find
that it is Jews themselves like Mayer, Bauer, Hier, Hilberg,
Lipstadt and others who are beginning to challenge the
establishment Holocaust story. The charges of anti-Semitism are
oftentimes, in fact, used merely to suppress Revisionist
scholarship and the free exchange of ideas necessary to judge its
merits.
Students should be encouraged to question who benefits from
promoting false Holocaust stories on the one hand and using charges
of "anti-Semitism' to suppress free inquiry into those stories on
the other.
It is difficult to understand why the concept of Free Inquiry
should be so alarming to those who manage our universities. Free
Inquiry makes no promise to Revisionism that it does not make to
every other school of thought. The promise of Free Inquiry is that
it will demonstrate what is true and false in Revisionist
scholarship at the time that it does so for the orthodox Holocaust
literature.
Free Inquiry does not follow a political or ideological line or it
isn't free. Free Inquiry is an equal opportunity ideal. Christian,
Jew and Moslem, Black and White, professor and student and layman
-- it's there for everyone. Free Inquiry holds out its arms to each
one of us, urging us to embrace it, use it, exhaust it in our
passion for understanding. Understanding, however, unlike Free
Inquiry, promises nothing. That's why there are professors willing
to denounce a scholar while refusing to exchange ideas with him.
They would rather see certain books suppressed than have to face
the awful possibility of coming to understand something that they
have committed their lives and their careers to not understanding.
THE MORAL ISSUE
When we suppress open debate on the Holocaust we promote bad
history and undermine the traditionally humane values of the
university. Bad history replaces historical understanding with
self-righteous nationalism both here and abroad. It encourages us
to scape-goat old enemies and to seek vengeance rather than
reconciliation. (It isn't easy, is it, to "reconcile" ourselves
with a people that skins Jews and cooks them?). The suppression of
Free Inquiry into the Holocaust story corrupts public discourse
institutionalizes double standards of justice, legitimizes charges
of guilt-by-association and a moral cowardice in facing our own
limitations as individuals and as a people.
Our refusal to allow critical examination of even the most bizarre
accusations made against Germans encourages men and women to bear
false witness, betray their chosen professions, and contributes to
the vulgarization of Jewish suffering.
Enough is enough!
--Bradley R. Smith
Committee for Open Discussion of the Holocaust
http://www.codoh.com/
--
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts,
foreign ideas, alien philosophies and competitive values. For a nation that
is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market
is a nation that is afraid of its people.
-- President John F. Kennedy
The only thing he got right in the whole post
was that nothing should be beyond being
questioned or debated.
After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
that started out with the idea that the Nazis
did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
I find it interesting that the German records
document how they killed millions of people
and some people refuse to believe it happened
because they hate Jews.
Another case of don't shake my prejudice
with any contrary facts.
"Ernest" <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
news:7d13gvogva9fuchjc201744j30dbfs8v6v@no-spam
>
> The only thing he got right in the whole post
> was that nothing should be beyond being
> questioned or debated.
>
> After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
> that started out with the idea that the Nazis
> did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
>
> I find it interesting that the German records
> document how they killed millions of people
> and some people refuse to believe it happened
> because they hate Jews.
>
Ain't no such documents.
Put up or shut up.
Ernest <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message news:<mih4gv8culgc4vvmp444p28gn47e17pjkm@no-spam>...
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:14:21 +1000, "The Enlightenment"
> <bernxard@no-spam> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ernest" <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
> >news:7d13gvogva9fuchjc201744j30dbfs8v6v@no-spam
> >>
> >> The only thing he got right in the whole post
> >> was that nothing should be beyond being
> >> questioned or debated.
> >>
> >> After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
> >> that started out with the idea that the Nazis
> >> did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
> >>
> >> I find it interesting that the German records
> >> document how they killed millions of people
> >> and some people refuse to believe it happened
> >> because they hate Jews.
> >>
> >
> >Ain't no such documents.
> >
> >Put up or shut up.
> >
> suggest you go to Germany and visit their
> museums. History channel has a couple of
> interesting documentaries on this subject
> where they have interviewed prison camp
> guards, prison camp survivors, and also
> showed records from the German archives
> about the establishment and operation of
> the camps, some of the train schedules and
> manifests, diaries of people involved in the
> rounding up and transportation of the Jews
Yes there were vast camps, often supplying factories on their
outskirts. There were definetly concentration camps full of
communists, political activists, jews, partisans etc. Doesn't mean
there was gassings or deliberate exterminations especialy in the
numbers mentioned. A train timetable does not prove that. To much of
old holocuast stories have turned out to be lurid frauds.
> Another point about all this is that most of
> the camps were destroyed towards or after
> the war, parts of some were still standing
> when decisions were made to keep them as
> memorials and some were rebuilt as part of
> that process. But even the original buildings
> that survived intact have been subject to
> being cleaned up and maintained for many
> years. Thus the likelihood of any forensic
> evidence being readily detectable some 40
> to 50 years later are extremely low if not
> washed away.
How convenient.
In the meanitime reputable and capable critics are prevented form
going there and are intimidated from publishishing their work.
The revisionsits may be right about 95% of the things you say (which
is why they are hated) but if you make one mistake or omision , no
matter how contoversial or trivial, that is the wedge they use to
slander and discredit as much as they can.
> Some of the allied military
> arranged forensic testing in some facilitles
> immediately following the end of the war
> and those reports should be available some
> where within the allied military archives.
They report boddies and suffering form typhus and malnutrition. An
outcome of the last monts of the war. Survivors and their clothes had
to be drenched in DDT. The Germans used Zyklon-B for the clothes
becuase they had no DDT.
>
> It is always possible to doubt when a few
> people claim that atrocities have happened
> but it is a different situation when guards
> testify to having carried out or witnessed
> the same things. Few people will publicly
> admit to committing crimes and getting
> imprisoned for years, but many of the camp
> guards did give such testimony.
There are few such cases. And non of gassings. The witnesses were
often brutally treated and severly intimidated. They knew that they
would be executed. Even innocent ones like Joh Damjanyuk who were
shown to be innocent (becuase they we somewhere and someone else)
continued to be harrased to the death. Even their Jewish lawyers
suffered (one was murdered). Holocaust insistors are fantatics if you
listen to them becuase they are on a crusade agisnt heresy.
>
> The actual evidence for what happened
> is greater than that avialble for the proof
> of the Wright brother's flight.
>
Rubbish. All we have is circumstantial evidence and a lot of hype.
"SharkMeat" <Elliot> says...
The guy who posted the stuff you're referring to used my nick but
was previously posting under the name Darren Smith.
He has flooded nz.politics with hundreds of fake posts, in an
arrogant and obsessive attempt to get me to change my nick.
He said the following-
"Are you that thick not to realise that if you go with that nick
you deserve ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you get. As I've said use
your real name and this ends. That Simple - nothing else will
change it - so keep whinging about USENET ABUSE - as if anyone
gives fuck."
If this Holocaust-denying newsgroup-flooding impersonating piece
of usenet filth is pissing you off in anyway, I suggest you make
a complaint to the following-
Rob Wise, Comindico Sydney
phone +61-2-8220-6062
fax+61-3-9326-4767
A few more complaints he will probably loose his account. He has
been warned already. He's just filth.
>
> "Redbaiter" <don't@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3f00e697@no-spam
> >
> I asked you about your sig in another thread, now I see by the <snipped
> bullshit in your post> that you *are* an idiot who would rather distort
> history than believe Germany's attempted extermination of the Jews. Never
> mind the fact that even German school children are taught about the
> Holocaust
> (http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998-no-frames/holocaust-ed-in-germany.h
> tm) which pretty much nullifies your 'Allied propaganda' rhetoric.
>
> Never mind the wealth of documents found at this address: Such as this one:
>
> +++++++++++++++++
> Do a Proper Job on the Jews!
> There are various views on the ultimate aim and task of the German-National
>
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low
On 2 Jul 2003 19:33:54 -0700, bernxard@no-spam (The
Enlightenment) wrote:
>Ernest <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message news:<mih4gv8culgc4vvmp444p28gn47e17pjkm@no-spam>...
>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:14:21 +1000, "The Enlightenment"
>> <bernxard@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Ernest" <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
>> >news:7d13gvogva9fuchjc201744j30dbfs8v6v@no-spam
>> >>
>> >> The only thing he got right in the whole post
>> >> was that nothing should be beyond being
>> >> questioned or debated.
>> >>
>> >> After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
>> >> that started out with the idea that the Nazis
>> >> did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
>> >>
>> >> I find it interesting that the German records
>> >> document how they killed millions of people
>> >> and some people refuse to believe it happened
>> >> because they hate Jews.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Ain't no such documents.
>> >
>> >Put up or shut up.
>> >
>> suggest you go to Germany and visit their
>> museums. History channel has a couple of
>> interesting documentaries on this subject
>> where they have interviewed prison camp
>> guards, prison camp survivors, and also
>> showed records from the German archives
>> about the establishment and operation of
>> the camps, some of the train schedules and
>> manifests, diaries of people involved in the
>> rounding up and transportation of the Jews
>
>Yes there were vast camps, often supplying factories on their
>outskirts. There were definetly concentration camps full of
>communists, political activists, jews, partisans etc. Doesn't mean
>there was gassings or deliberate exterminations especialy in the
>numbers mentioned. A train timetable does not prove that. To much of
>old holocuast stories have turned out to be lurid frauds.
>
Camp guards testifying of deliberate and
unnecessary killing of inmates in large numbers
do provide evidence. train timetables and
manifest showing huge numbers of people
being shipped to the camps on a weekly
basis and then only a fraction being around
afterwards provides strong supporting
indirect evidence.
Documents from camp commanders to high
ranking NAZI officials giving numbers of
people killed each week and mentioning
some of the methods used are evidence.
Sufficient to prove to any reasonable
person beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>
>> Another point about all this is that most of
>> the camps were destroyed towards or after
>> the war, parts of some were still standing
>> when decisions were made to keep them as
>> memorials and some were rebuilt as part of
>> that process. But even the original buildings
>> that survived intact have been subject to
>> being cleaned up and maintained for many
>> years. Thus the likelihood of any forensic
>> evidence being readily detectable some 40
>> to 50 years later are extremely low if not
>> washed away.
>
>How convenient.
>
>In the meanitime reputable and capable critics are prevented form
>going there and are intimidated from publishishing their work.
>
I have heard of biased people being refused
access, I have even heard of some being
closed to the general public for various
reasons, but not heard of any academic or
investigator with a good reputation being
refused access to any of the facilities or
records that are safe to access. One of
the camps was closed to all access a few
years back due to safety concerns as the
facility had not been propely maintained.
>The revisionsits may be right about 95% of the things you say (which
>is why they are hated) but if you make one mistake or omision , no
>matter how contoversial or trivial, that is the wedge they use to
>slander and discredit as much as they can.
>
The only ones I have seen coping abuse are
those with clearly defined biases who flatly
refused to admit that anything at all happened,
one even refused to admit the existence of
the camps.
>
>> Some of the allied military
>> arranged forensic testing in some facilitles
>> immediately following the end of the war
>> and those reports should be available some
>> where within the allied military archives.
>
>They report boddies and suffering form typhus and malnutrition. An
>outcome of the last monts of the war. Survivors and their clothes had
>to be drenched in DDT. The Germans used Zyklon-B for the clothes
>becuase they had no DDT.
>
And some report deaths from execution by
firing suad in large numbers, and some by the
use of gas etc.
>
>>
>> It is always possible to doubt when a few
>> people claim that atrocities have happened
>> but it is a different situation when guards
>> testify to having carried out or witnessed
>> the same things. Few people will publicly
>> admit to committing crimes and getting
>> imprisoned for years, but many of the camp
>> guards did give such testimony.
>
>There are few such cases. And non of gassings. The witnesses were
>often brutally treated and severly intimidated. They knew that they
>would be executed. Even innocent ones like Joh Damjanyuk who were
>shown to be innocent (becuase they we somewhere and someone else)
>continued to be harrased to the death. Even their Jewish lawyers
>suffered (one was murdered). Holocaust insistors are fantatics if you
>listen to them becuase they are on a crusade agisnt heresy.
>
Guards who were at the camps have testified
about eyewitness accounts of the gassings,
there are even diary entries and photos of
one German junior officer who served in admin
possitions at two camps. there are even
records where some German soldiers had sent
testimony and evidence to Geneva during
the war.
Sure there have been cases where some
of the camp personnel have proven to be
mistaken identities, and some people have
been so traumatised by their experiences
that they conduct 'witch hunts' to get all
those involved. But that does not mean
the events did not happen.
Some of the German's who served in the
same units that were responsible for the
camps have been accused of being involved
and some have been able to prove that they
were outposted and not involved in the
camp activities. In one case a non-commissioned
officer served at a local headquarters as
a liason person because they did not want
to serve at teh camp their unit had been
posted to as he had heard stories from other
soldiers when he was posted in.
Also some of the German guards have
taken on false identities to avoid being
charged with what they did at the camps.
>>
>> The actual evidence for what happened
>> is greater than that avialble for the proof
>> of the Wright brother's flight.
>>
>
>Rubbish. All we have is circumstantial evidence and a lot of hype.
Eye witnesses from many nations and cultures
(including Germans), photos by Germans, and
NAZI records. Even testimony from Jews who
helped the camp guards in order to stay alive.
Much more clear evidence than the manufactured
bullshit called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Even after the guy who made that up had
confessed to it being fiction some idiots still
thinks that it is true because that is how certain
bigots promote it.
If the type of evidence of the wholesale
killing of the Jews, Gypsies and other ethnic
undesireables is not enough, then there is
not enough evidence to prove that WW2,
WW1, Crimean, Korean, or Vietnam wars
ever really occurred.
The extermination of people based on their
ethnic make up happened, the evidence of
that is overwhelming. What is in question
is exactly who was actively involved, who
was involved simply to avoid being killed
and how many of these people are alive
toady and should be held accountable for
their actions. The other area of doubt is
how many people were killed, there are
not definitive records about that, the best
estimates are somewhere between 6 to
11 million people were killed. Most of those
estimates are based on different sets of
records from the various governments.
The most believable are from the German
army records and they indicate over
8.5 million people, and they are not complete.
Ernest
The Enlightenment wrote:
> "Ernest" <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:7d13gvogva9fuchjc201744j30dbfs8v6v@no-spam
>>
>> The only thing he got right in the whole post
>> was that nothing should be beyond being
>> questioned or debated.
>>
>> After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
>> that started out with the idea that the Nazis
>> did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
>>
>> I find it interesting that the German records
>> document how they killed millions of people
>> and some people refuse to believe it happened
>> because they hate Jews.
>>
>
> Ain't no such documents.
>
> Put up or shut up.
There is plenty of documentation and you know it.
Tilly
--
climbaboard@no-spam
The Enlightenment wrote:
> Ernest <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:<mih4gv8culgc4vvmp444p28gn47e17pjkm@no-spam>...
>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:14:21 +1000, "The Enlightenment"
>> <bernxard@no-spam> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Ernest" <deadly0711@no-spam> wrote in message
>>> news:7d13gvogva9fuchjc201744j30dbfs8v6v@no-spam
>>>>
>>>> The only thing he got right in the whole post
>>>> was that nothing should be beyond being
>>>> questioned or debated.
>>>>
>>>> After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
>>>> that started out with the idea that the Nazis
>>>> did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
>>>>
>>>> I find it interesting that the German records
>>>> document how they killed millions of people
>>>> and some people refuse to believe it happened
>>>> because they hate Jews.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ain't no such documents.
>>>
>>> Put up or shut up.
>>>
>> suggest you go to Germany and visit their
>> museums. History channel has a couple of
>> interesting documentaries on this subject
>> where they have interviewed prison camp
>> guards, prison camp survivors, and also
>> showed records from the German archives
>> about the establishment and operation of
>> the camps, some of the train schedules and
>> manifests, diaries of people involved in the
>> rounding up and transportation of the Jews
>
> Yes there were vast camps, often supplying factories on their
> outskirts. There were definetly concentration camps full of
> communists, political activists, jews, partisans etc. Doesn't mean
> there was gassings or deliberate exterminations especialy in the
> numbers mentioned. A train timetable does not prove that. To much of
> old holocuast stories have turned out to be lurid frauds.
>
>
>> Another point about all this is that most of
>> the camps were destroyed towards or after
>> the war, parts of some were still standing
>> when decisions were made to keep them as
>> memorials and some were rebuilt as part of
>> that process. But even the original buildings
>> that survived intact have been subject to
>> being cleaned up and maintained for many
>> years. Thus the likelihood of any forensic
>> evidence being readily detectable some 40
>> to 50 years later are extremely low if not
>> washed away.
>
> How convenient.
>
> In the meanitime reputable and capable critics are prevented form
> going there and are intimidated from publishishing their work.
>
> The revisionsits may be right about 95% of the things you say (which
> is why they are hated) but if you make one mistake or omision , no
> matter how contoversial or trivial, that is the wedge they use to
> slander and discredit as much as they can.
>
>
>> Some of the allied military
>> arranged forensic testing in some facilitles
>> immediately following the end of the war
>> and those reports should be available some
>> where within the allied military archives.
>
> They report boddies and suffering form typhus and malnutrition. An
> outcome of the last monts of the war. Survivors and their clothes had
> to be drenched in DDT. The Germans used Zyklon-B for the clothes
> becuase they had no DDT.
>
>
>>
>> It is always possible to doubt when a few
>> people claim that atrocities have happened
>> but it is a different situation when guards
>> testify to having carried out or witnessed
>> the same things. Few people will publicly
>> admit to committing crimes and getting
>> imprisoned for years, but many of the camp
>> guards did give such testimony.
>
> There are few such cases. And non of gassings. The witnesses were
> often brutally treated and severly intimidated. They knew that they
> would be executed. Even innocent ones like Joh Damjanyuk who were
> shown to be innocent (becuase they we somewhere and someone else)
> continued to be harrased to the death. Even their Jewish lawyers
> suffered (one was murdered). Holocaust insistors are fantatics if you
> listen to them becuase they are on a crusade agisnt heresy.
>
>>
>> The actual evidence for what happened
>> is greater than that avialble for the proof
>> of the Wright brother's flight.
>>
>
> Rubbish. All we have is circumstantial evidence and a lot of hype.
I suggest you have a look at the evidence the Red Cross has for a start.
There is plenty of evidence.
Tilly
--
climbaboard@no-spam
What soc.culture.jewish posts? I don't recall any?
--
--
Redbater
In the leftist's lexicon, the slowest of the slow
"Tilly" <climbaboard@no-spam> wrote in message
news:1KVMa.64897$JA5.1183948@no-spam
> Ernest wrote:
> > The only thing he got right in the whole post
> > was that nothing should be beyond being
> > questioned or debated.
> >
> > After that he delved into a lot of biased bullshit
> > that started out with the idea that the Nazis
> > did not set out to exterminate the Jews.
> >
> > I find it interesting that the German records
> > document how they killed millions of people
> > and some people refuse to believe it happened
> > because they hate Jews.
> >
> > Another case of don't shake my prejudice
> > with any contrary facts.
>
>
> Redbaiter (the one at .comindico.com.au) Is a Jew hater ,revisionist & neo
> Nazi if his posts at soc.culture,jewish are anything to go by.
>
> Tilly
> --
> climbaboard@no-spam
>
>