"Lobby Dosser" <lobby.dosser.mapson@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Og9Ma.2879$JY1.1006@no-spam
> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in
> news:vg26fe2cfhq923@no-spam
>
> >
> >
> > <clw@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:clw-CC6DF8.15102430062003@no-spam
> >> In article <vg16o2kc69laac@no-spam>,
> >> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote:
> >>
> >> > <clw@no-spam> wrote in message
> >> > news:clw-2FAA34.12165230062003@no-spam
> >> > > In article <vg11qo17m7tr87@no-spam>,
> >> > > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Then why do we keep seeing people in this group whine that it
> >> > > > would
> > take
> >> > > > longer for self-serve because you would have to go inside to
> >> > > > pay? I
> >> > believe
> >> > > > someone in this thread was complaining that employees would be
> >> > > > too
> > busy
> >> > > > making burritos to take their money.
> >> > >
> >> > > Not the employees, but the guy parked at the pump (and keeping
> >> > > you
> > away
> >> > > from the pump) who has disappeared into the store to get his
> >> > > snack. Have had that happen to me.
> >> >
> >> > How would this be any different with self-serve?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> You coulkd get your burrito while someone else pumped the gas, washed
> >> the windows etc.
> >
> > I don't buy gas station burritos or ask gas monkeys to do what I can
> > do.
> >
> > The fastest is for someone to pump the gas while you
> >> wash your own windows, check iol etc.
> >
> > Charlie, this is complete B.S. You put the nozzle in and set the
> > latch, you wash your own friggin windows and when the latch
> > disconnects you pull the nozzle out. Just like the gas monkeys do.
> > Only there isn't a wait and there is no tip.
>
> You TIP in Gas Stations???!!
Well, what a cheap ass you turned out to be.
Yes, you pay for service. If I have someone wipe my windows and fill the oil
or anti-freeze I PAY THEM. Are you one of those cheapskates that refuse to
tip. What a progressive you are. We certainly need more like you looking out
for the working class.
--
"Bill Shatzer" <bshatzer@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0306302251470.14851-100000@no-spam
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Dave Thompson wrote:
>
> -snips-
>
> > Charlie, this is complete B.S. You put the nozzle in and set the latch,
you
> > wash your own friggin windows and when the latch disconnects you pull
the
> > nozzle out. Just like the gas monkeys do. Only there isn't a wait and
there
> > is no tip.
>
> You -tip- at gas stations??
>
> Sheesh!
I found another one. So concerned about the welfare of minimum wage class
yet you can't pay for the service they provide. Yes, I'm an ample tipper.
I'm not an Oregonian that hasn't strayed outside the state borders. I pay
for service. If someone gives me labor I pay for it and I am gratefull for
it. Today I let an Albertson's bagger take my groceries to the truck (it's
close to the 4th and I had a lot of groceries). I tipped her 5 bucks because
I have money to spare. She liked it and it didn't hurt me at all. You'd
trather a tax payed for your convenience.
The funny thing about you, Shatzer, is that you have a problem with this but
wouldn't have a problem with taxing the shit out of everyone equally. I tip
freely but you think taxing freely is a better option.
Sheesh, a thousand times over. freakin fuckin sheesh you goddamn hypocrite.
> Peace and justice,
You may believe in peace like I do, but you don't believe in justice. Drop
it. Just say "Peace but ram justice up your ass."
"Russell Senior" <seniorr@no-spam> wrote in message
news:86of0eaisa.fsf@no-spam
> >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Thompson <dav13795@no-spam> writes:
>
> Dave> [...] Only there isn't a wait and there is no tip.
>
> I really don't understand why you keep going to these lousy gas
> stations. At the station I usually go to, I get frequently get my
> windows washed and oil checked _and_ I don't wait for more than about
> 10 seconds for the attendant to walk over and put away the nozzle.
>
> And I have _never_ in my life paid an attendant a tip. Where do you
> get these ideas?
Decency. Have you ever heard of that word? Russel, who has supposedly
killfiled me.
Just keep it coming and make yourself look like more of an ass.
Dave Thompson <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg10kgfh6h7gd8@no-spam
> <clw@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:clw-1DDC45.06492530062003@no-spam
> > In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0306292204480.3616-100000@no-spam>,
> > Bill Shatzer <bshatzer@no-spam> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > But, if self-service proponents wish it to come up for another
vote, the
> > > process is not difficult. A bit over 60,000 signatures need
but be
> > > gathered - a goal well within the capabilities of the oil
companies and
> > > the gas station owners association if they saw any future in
that.
> >
> > I wonder what the vote would be in states where self serv is
allowed.
>
> I'd say you could tell by the lack of demand for it in other
states. Usually
> just a row of rarely used pumps usually used by elderly and
handicapped
> drivers. Full serve lanes tend to be more common around retirement
> communities and less common around college towns.
>
> I
> > know that several of our visitors were amazed that we did not
have to
> > pump our own gas and thought it was a great idea.
>
> They probably do, untill one day they find out they can't pump
their own gas
> at all when they are in a hurry and realize how stupid the law is.
>
This is such a stupid arguement. If the station you use doesn't get
an attendant to you quickly, then find another station. I never
wait as long for someone to start the pump as it would take me to
get out of the car and start it myself. You think you waste time in
waiting now, just think what it would be like to be behind me at the
pump. ;> If that doesn't scare you, try waiting for my mother to
pump her own gas. Just relax, use the time to take a couple of deep
breaths... you certainly need some quiet time in your hectic rush
through life. ;>
I was reading in AAA magazine recently: "A solid majority of the
general public opposes repealing the ban on self-service gasoline.
By nearly 2-to-1 margin, AAA Oregon members also oppose any type of
repeal, citing such issues as cleanliness, safety, and the economic
consequences of potential job cuts. AAA remains steadfast on this
issue and urges lawmakers to continue the ban on self-service
gasoline."
(They also support raising freeway speeds to 75mph.)
Deb
--
If I ran the world, we'd all face different challenges. ;>
>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Thompson <dav13795@no-spam> writes:
Dave> [...] Only there isn't a wait and there is no tip.
Russell> I really don't understand why you keep going to these lousy
Russell> gas stations. At the station I usually go to, I get
Russell> frequently get my windows washed and oil checked _and_ I
Russell> don't wait for more than about 10 seconds for the attendant
Russell> to walk over and put away the nozzle.
Russell> And I have _never_ in my life paid an attendant a tip. Where
Russell> do you get these ideas?
Dave> Decency. Have you ever heard of that word?
Service is built into the price of the gas. I go back to places that
give good service. I don't "tip" waiters in France either. It isn't
the custom.
Dave> Russel, who has supposedly killfiled me.
In another group. Fixing that directly.
Dave> Just keep it coming and make yourself look like more of an ass.
Let's take a poll. What Oregonian here does and doesn't tip the gas
station attendant when they wash your windows? Not only do I not do
it, but I have never observed anyone else do it either.
--
Russell Senior ``shtal latta wos ba padre u prett tu nashtonfi
seniorr@no-spam mrlosh'' -- Bashgali Kafir for ``If you have
had diarrhoea many days you will surely die.''
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0306302354190.15358@no-spam
>
> "Bill Shatzer" wrote:
>
> > The best argument against self-serve is that the
> > majority of Oregonians don't want it and are
> > uninterested in trying it.
> >
> > They simply see nothing at all "in it" for them
>
>
> Typical "tyranny of the majority" Shatzer logic.
> Screw 'em, eh Shatzer?
>
Seems to me that you get tyrannized either way.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"cardboard" <cardboard@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Xns93AB2EED7BE2Bcardboard@no-spam
> zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam wrote:
>
> >
> > "Bill Shatzer" wrote:
> >
> >> The best argument against self-serve is that the
> >> majority of Oregonians don't want it and are
> >> uninterested in trying it.
> >>
> >> They simply see nothing at all "in it" for them
> >
> >
> > Typical "tyranny of the majority" Shatzer logic.
> > Screw 'em, eh Shatzer?
> >
>
> Indeed, this is purely a pro choice issue.
Not unless you're a gas station owner.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"gatt" <gatt@no-spam> wrote in message
news:XpwMa.10414$JY1.6815@no-spam
>
> "Paul Johnson" <baloo@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:88l7t-ho1.ln1@no-spam
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > The Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:19:30 -0700, Dave Thompson <dav13795@no-spam>
> wrote:
> > > Charlie, this is complete B.S. You put the nozzle in and set the
latch,
> you
> > > wash your own friggin windows and when the latch disconnects you pull
> the
> > > nozzle out. Just like the gas monkeys do. Only there isn't a wait and
> there
> > > is no tip.
> >
> > Never mind that people who pump gas all day every day can do it faster
> > than Joe Random Public.
>
> Not when they have to run around between six or eight cars and everybody
> else has to wait in line for an available attendant.
>
> If we were to race, I'd say a pro pump jockey could beat me by maybe a few
> seconds at most. Then again, I've filled airplanes directly from the fuel
> pump and boats from the dock, not to mention my own vehicle for three
years
> in Washington.
>
> In my experience, it's MUCH faster to pump yourself unless of course you
end
> up having to pay inside.
>
The station I usually go to, the attendant is almost always at my car before
I can get the door open. If this is not your experience, you need a new gas
station.
"gatt" <gatt@no-spam> wrote in message
news:7nwMa.10399$JY1.7429@no-spam
>
> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
>
> > > You TIP in Gas Stations???!!
> >
> > Well, what a cheap ass you turned out to be.
>
>
> Hehe. Well, Dave, you're the first guy I've ever heard of tipping a gas
> station attendant. I don't think it ever even occurs to most people.
>
> As for me, I tip waitresses, cab drivers, bartenders (strippers, once),
etc
> pretty generously, mainly because I expect and appreciate the service.
Since
> I've never particularly wanted anybody to pump my gas or otherwise molest
my
> perfectly good vehicle, it's just not something I've ever conceived of
doing
> anymore than I'd tip, say, a MAX driver.
>
> I'm not saying it's wrong to do so it's just...rare.
I think you are under the assumption that I tip them for pumping my gas.
It's logical to assume that since I don't appreciate this service that I
would never do that. However, if I have both kids in the car and the guy
wipes my windows, checks and fills my oil I think he's gone above the call
of duty and deserves a buck.
"Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg64a2kl5q6m2e@no-spam
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "gatt" <gatt@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:XpwMa.10414$JY1.6815@no-spam
> >
> > "Paul Johnson" <baloo@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:88l7t-ho1.ln1@no-spam
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > The Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:19:30 -0700, Dave Thompson
<dav13795@no-spam>
> > wrote:
> > > > Charlie, this is complete B.S. You put the nozzle in and set the
> latch,
> > you
> > > > wash your own friggin windows and when the latch disconnects you
pull
> > the
> > > > nozzle out. Just like the gas monkeys do. Only there isn't a wait
and
> > there
> > > > is no tip.
> > >
> > > Never mind that people who pump gas all day every day can do it faster
> > > than Joe Random Public.
> >
> > Not when they have to run around between six or eight cars and everybody
> > else has to wait in line for an available attendant.
> >
> > If we were to race, I'd say a pro pump jockey could beat me by maybe a
few
> > seconds at most. Then again, I've filled airplanes directly from the
fuel
> > pump and boats from the dock, not to mention my own vehicle for three
> years
> > in Washington.
> >
> > In my experience, it's MUCH faster to pump yourself unless of course you
> end
> > up having to pay inside.
> >
> The station I usually go to, the attendant is almost always at my car
before
> I can get the door open. If this is not your experience, you need a new
gas
> station.
The problem is that this only happens at the stations that aren't busy,
usually because someone else has lower prices. Those stations tend to be
packed. So technically you are paying more for the convenience - as you
should be. So much for the idea that you are getting your gas pumped for
free.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg68nbo2ngauc6@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg64a2kl5q6m2e@no-spam
> > --
> > >
> > The station I usually go to, the attendant is almost always at my car
> before
> > I can get the door open. If this is not your experience, you need a new
> gas
> > station.
>
> The problem is that this only happens at the stations that aren't busy,
> usually because someone else has lower prices. Those stations tend to be
> packed. So technically you are paying more for the convenience - as you
> should be. So much for the idea that you are getting your gas pumped for
> free.
>
Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area. They're
simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
"Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg6qp5ebvv7gaa@no-spam
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg68nbo2ngauc6@no-spam
> >
> > "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vg64a2kl5q6m2e@no-spam
> > > --
> > > >
> > > The station I usually go to, the attendant is almost always at my car
> > before
> > > I can get the door open. If this is not your experience, you need a
new
> > gas
> > > station.
> >
> > The problem is that this only happens at the stations that aren't busy,
> > usually because someone else has lower prices. Those stations tend to be
> > packed. So technically you are paying more for the convenience - as you
> > should be. So much for the idea that you are getting your gas pumped for
> > free.
> >
> Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
They're
> simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
Which one is it?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg6rueaagd8nf4@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg6qp5ebvv7gaa@no-spam
> > --
> > >
> > Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
> They're
> > simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
>
> Which one is it?
>
Why should I tell *you*, asshole?
"Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg6s40b9cla34c@no-spam
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg6rueaagd8nf4@no-spam
> >
> > "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vg6qp5ebvv7gaa@no-spam
> > > --
> > > >
> > > Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
> > They're
> > > simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
> >
> > Which one is it?
> >
> Why should I tell *you*, asshole?
No reason. I knew you wouldn't. I just wanted you to refuse and continue the
behavior that shows everyone that you are a liar. You are predictable, if
not honest.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg6u2fipjm8i28@no-spam
>
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg6s40b9cla34c@no-spam
> > --
> >
> > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vg6rueaagd8nf4@no-spam
> > >
> > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > news:vg6qp5ebvv7gaa@no-spam
> > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
> > > They're
> > > > simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
> > >
> > > Which one is it?
> > >
> > Why should I tell *you*, asshole?
>
> No reason. I knew you wouldn't. I just wanted you to refuse and continue
the
> behavior that shows everyone that you are a liar.
Nope, you just show that you're an asshole ...
>You are predictable, if
> not honest.
>
... but you are dishonest.
"Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vg7bq6euejn267@no-spam
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vg6u2fipjm8i28@no-spam
> >
> >
> > "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vg6s40b9cla34c@no-spam
> > > --
> > >
> > > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > news:vg6rueaagd8nf4@no-spam
> > > >
> > > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > > news:vg6qp5ebvv7gaa@no-spam
> > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
> > > > They're
> > > > > simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
> > > >
> > > > Which one is it?
> > > >
> > > Why should I tell *you*, asshole?
> >
> > No reason. I knew you wouldn't. I just wanted you to refuse and continue
> the
> > behavior that shows everyone that you are a liar.
>
> Nope, you just show that you're an asshole ...
How, by challenging you to show proof of your claims?
>
> >You are predictable, if
> > not honest.
> >
> ... but you are dishonest.
Really? So I;m dishonest for calling you on your lies? Funny idea of
dishonesty you have.
You could show me up by telling us where those cheap gas stations are.
Actually, that's the only way you can show me up but you can keep avoiding
the issue so I can keep rubbing your nose in it.
So, just where are those north Portland gas stations with $1.45 gas? Go
ahead. A simple answer will put me in my place. Another retreat will just
make everyone else sure that you are a lying bastard.
C'mon big guy, it would be so easy. You could topple me with just an
intersection (which I would immediately call and ask what their rates are
and have been).
C'mon Baxter. Do me. Make me your bitch. Show me who's the daddy. It's so
easy.
Everyone knows you just make shit up. But you can come through this one
time. Out of how many times you've pulled the same shit.
it takes a bit of expence more then just the minumum wage for an employee..
i employ a secretary and she makes 7.10 an hour... i pay a bit more then
just that becasue of workmans comp.... and a few other things
"Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0307042204250.7151@no-spam
>
> CLW wrote:
>
> > Considering that the pump jockies are minimum wage
> > employees, they could make their hours wage with
> > one ten gallon two minute fillup. Every other
> > car would be pure profit for the station/oil company.
>
>
> Well, not really. You forget the other costs to
> a business per each employee. The costs that
> are not seen in the paycheck. Further proof that
> far too many people don't realize the real cost
> per hour of an employee.
>
> [snip]
>
> > And, I am mildly surprized that they do not make
> > self serv more difficult to push people into the
> > full serv lanes.
>
>
> You're suprised only because you go into
> the debate with a very skewed view of
> the issue.
>
> Bob t
"John" <jawod@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f07975b$0$88050$a0465688@no-spam
> there he goes again...learn some frickin manners
Let's try this one more time. Maybe you can address the post rather than
dodging it.
> > So, basically you're undermining your own argument about how self-serve
> > would be cheaper.
> And you are showing what an idiot you are.
>
> Are you unaware that gas stations are a "for profit" business? And just
how
> does pointing out that owners profit on the labor of their attendants
> undermine the argument that self-serve would be cheaper? Here's a clue for
> you. Self-serve doesn't require an attendant.
Go ahead. Try to make some sense.
"Joni Rathbun" <jrathbun@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0307061004140.10049-100000@no-spam
>
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Dave Thompson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "John" <jawod@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:3f07975b$0$88050$a0465688@no-spam
> > > there he goes again...learn some frickin manners
> >
> > Let's try this one more time. Maybe you can address the post rather than
> > dodging it.
> >
> > > > So, basically you're undermining your own argument about how
self-serve
> > > > would be cheaper.
> >
> > > And you are showing what an idiot you are.
> > >
> > > Are you unaware that gas stations are a "for profit" business? And
just
> > how
> > > does pointing out that owners profit on the labor of their attendants
> > > undermine the argument that self-serve would be cheaper? Here's a clue
for
> > > you. Self-serve doesn't require an attendant.
> >
> > Go ahead. Try to make some sense.
> >
>
> Here's an honest question for you; I don't know the answer. But are
> there any requirements in other states that attendants be available
> for handicapped customers?
Yes. I believe that not only is it a federal law (it's been posted in
similar threads before so you can look it up if you want), but at least some
also enforce it locally. Various stations handle it in differnt ways. Some
have intercoms, some have buttons that ring inside, and some have signs that
say honk. I also believe that you can get self-serve prices at the full
serve pumps if you have a handicapped sticker.
Or in case of emergency, etc? I'm thinking
> of the time I was at the station and the hose in the car in front
> of me flopped out and flooded the place with gas. The pump wouldn't
> switch off.
I don't remember all the details of your story. Did you know that there are
emergency pump shut-offs at each lane?
"Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0307061302570.22335@no-spam
>
> Joni Rathbun wrote:
>
> > Here's an honest question for you; I don't know the answer. But are
> > there any requirements in other states that attendants be available
> > for handicapped customers?
>
>
> This is what I've been asking opponents to do since we've
> been discussing this going back a few years. My point
> was that instead of opponents making up stuff or imagining
> that seniors and handicapped people are sitting in their cars
> for days and weeks waiting to get served (or are never
> served at all), they should use their head and realize
> that in the 48 states with choice (including many states
> with majorities of the so-called caring Democrats)
> they *must* have resolved these matters long ago.
> Find out what they do there, and the opponents will
> have less to play chicken little over. They'll
> be left with just that "tradition" argument that
> is totally worthless.
That's pretty much all they have left. All the other arguments: safety,
cleanliness, weather, jobs, price, fairness, and convenience have been swept
under the table. Indicative of their argument is that when I or others have
offered any solution to satisfy their problem with self serve (making mini
serve required, having gas monkeys always on hand and allowing you to
choose whether you pump your own gas or not, keeping self serve and mini
serve prices the same) the most vocal supporters have just plain disappeared
or ignored the attempted solution entirely. If you can't accept a valid
solution that allows everyone to have a choice then it just comes down to
pure pig-headedness.
"gatt" <gatt@no-spam> wrote in message
news:ZTCOa.18600$aD6.3685@no-spam
>
> "Bill Shatzer" <bshatzer@no-spam> wrote in message
>
> > > > I'm thinking that leaving the gas pumping with just no one around
> > > > is not the safest practice.
> >
> > > That's what happens when Jose the gas jockey is running around between
> pump
> > > 1 and pump 8 all day long.
>
> It amazes me that people are still throwing around these hypothetical
> situations, like we don't have the entire rest of the world except for New
> Jersey to serve as an example.
Besides, most pumps have signs that say "Don't leave pump unattended". Just
because there are stupid or inconsiderate people out there is not a good
reason for the state to tell everyone else they can't perform a simple act.
There are plenty of mothers out there who selfishly smoke or drink during
pregnancy as well as parents that smoke around their kids. Both acts are
harmful to the children and cause far more problems than people pumping
their own gas ever have. Why doesn't the state take away reproductive and
parental rights since there are careless and stupid people out there harming
their own children?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"gatt" <gatt@no-spam> wrote in message
news:FOLOa.21092$C43.18964@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spaminator@no-spam> wrote in message
>
> > > The problem is that this only happens at the stations that aren't
busy,
> > > usually because someone else has lower prices. Those stations tend to
be
> > > packed. So technically you are paying more for the convenience - as
you
> > > should be. So much for the idea that you are getting your gas pumped
for
> > > free.
> > >
> > Nope. The station is usually among the lowest priced in the area.
> They're
> > simply efficient in getting the cars filled and 'out the door.'
>
> And they sprinkle fairy dust on your car when you leave too, huh?
>
Seems to me that you've sniffed a bit too much "fairy dust".
"David Zeit" <davezeit@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3F26AF23.911D7B43@no-spam
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>
> Bob Tiernan wrote:
> >
> > Recently I summed up the pro-ban
> > argument by stating:
> >
> > "Find out what [people] do [about pro-ban people's
> > concerns in self-serve states], and the opponents
> > will have less to play chicken little over. They'll
> > be left with just that "tradition" argument that is
> > totally worthless."
> >
> > To which Dave Thompson replied:
> >
> > "That's pretty much all they have left. All the other
> > arguments: safety, cleanliness, weather, jobs, price,
> > fairness, and convenience have been swept under
> > the table."
> >
> > That's pretty much it. And note, too, that
> > Dave and I, and sometimes one other person,
> > always dealt with the issue itself, broken
> > down into its various parts as each part
> > was examined. That's what is meant by
> > a *debate* of the *issue*.
> >
> > But there's one other argument besides
> > the fatally weak "tradition" one that
> > is brought up by the pro-ban people,
> > ad nauseum. Actually, it's not really
> > an argument at all, but a cop-out
> > statement that all but serves as a
> > confession that they could not win the
> > arument, the debate, by actually
> > discussing the issue.
> >
> > In response to my comment that no substantive
> > argument was made defending the ban, Shatzer
> > replied, aside from "Tough!":
> >
> > "The reasons for maintaining a self-service ban seem wholely
> > 'substantive' unto the majority of Oregonians, whether you
> > find them sufficient or not.
> >
> > "At such time as that changes, the self-service laws will as
> > well. Whether you find the reasons for change "substantive"
> > or not."
> >
> > And Homuth replied by breaking this feeble
> > defense of the ban into three parts:
> >
> > "Legally: The state claims a specific safety problem.
> > It passes the Rational Basis Test. It may be instituted,
> > if Oregonians choose to do it.
> >
> > "Politically: Oregonians choose to do it.
> >
> > "Practically: Getting the ban overturned will require
> > a vote of Oregonians to do so. Thus far, no entity,
> > least of all the collected Net Weenies hereon, is
> > prepared to undertake the effort to do so.
> >
> > "Taken individually or together, those observations
> > are a Substantive Defense if there ever was one.
> >
> > "....you have no legal, political or practical way of
> > being rid of it.
> >
> > "Tough!"
> >
> > In other words, the apparently slim to
> > zero chance of getting the ban repealed
> > is an "argument" in defense of the ban.
> >
> > That is no argument at all, and no defense
> > at all, but merely a statement of facts
> > regarding the chances of the ban being
> > repealed.
> >
> > This is tantamount to realizing you are
> > losing an argument on every level and
> > then spewing expletives and walking away
> > ("You want it repealed? Then go get
> > the signatures!"). Yeah, what an argument.
> >
> > We were discussing the *issue* by its
> > *merits*, not by the chances of the ban
> > being repealed. That is a separate argument.
> >
> > But before I close, let me deal with
> > the three-part "argument" as set down
> > by Homuth.
> >
> > # 1
> >
> > "Legally: The state claims a specific safety problem.
> > It passes the Rational Basis Test. It may be instituted,
> > if Oregonians choose to do it."
> >
> > Sure, the State of Oregon claims "a specific
> > safety problem". That's not an argument,
> > but a fact of state power. The "specific
> > safety problem" itself has been dispatched
> > by Dave more than it was by me and besides,
> > 48 other states, including some that generally
> > have more big daddy laws than Oregon has,
> > don't see this "problem" as anything more
> > than a state's power to have an opinion.
> > 48 other states allowing self-serve make
> > a mockery of Oregon's "concern" for this
> > "specific safety issue".
> >
> > # 2
> >
> > "Politically: Oregonians choose to do it."
> >
> > Sorry, not an argument nor a defense of
> > the merits of maintaining the ban.
> >
> > # 3
> >
> > "Practically: Getting the ban overturned will
> > require a vote of Oregonians to do so. Thus far,
> > no entity, least of all the collected Net Weenies
> > hereon, is prepared to undertake the effort to do so."
> >
> > Again (and I can't repeat this often enough),
> > this is not an argument favoring the merits
> > of maintaining the ban. It's merely a
> > statement regarding the level of work
> > needed to repeal it (at least in one
> > scenario).
>
>
> Uh..........there is ONE argument favoring the ban on self
> serv.........The majority of Oregonians do not want it.
Then they don't have to use it. That doesn't give them justification for not
letting me pump if I so choose. Maybe I don't like fast food so I should
make sure you don't have any either.
I think it's mostly an issue of defining one's identity in terms of quirky
local laws. Oregonians feel that part of their identity is tied up in having
state liquor stores, no sales tax, no self-serve gas, a bottle bill, an
amateur-hour State Legislature, and land-use laws that preserve rural Oregon
for the use of agribusiness and the wealthy.
None of these stances are particularly inarguable. Plenty of nice places
elsewhere in the country do things differently. But challenging Oregon's
quirky laws is like telling a Virginian, "It's a good thing that Robert E.
Lee was a second-rate general, because otherwise Virginians would still be
farming with slave labor." The problem isn't whether the statement is true
or false, but that it violates two strongly held taboos: it questions Lee's
invincibility and mentions the Peculiar Institution in a local context.
Oregon has its own taboos, and it really isn't worth arguing about them.
Nobody's listening.
-- Robert
--
Robert Plamondon
36475 Norton Creek Rd, Blodgett OR 97326
robert@no-spam
* See the books I'm publishing, including "Success With Baby Chicks" and
"Genetics of the Fowl":
http://www.plamondon.com/nortoncreekpress.html?referrer=sn
* Sign up for my poultry tips newsletter!
http://www.plamondon.com/newsletter.html?referrer=snews
* See my Poultry Web Page:
http://www.plamondon.com/freerange.shtml?referrer=sf
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:H2xVa.124251$Io.10610009@no-spam
>
>
> No, we just have to sit in line at stations while attendants mosey around
> serving one car at a time. You spend ten minutes sitting at a pump when
in
> 48 states you need spend only four.
Again - if this is happening to you, then you need to find a new gas
station. The stations I use usually have the pump nozzle in hand by the
time I can pop the filler lid.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:5lBVa.26698$Mc.2078173@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vidheijob1nv19@no-spam
> > --
> > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:H2xVa.124251$Io.10610009@no-spam
> > >
> > >
> > > No, we just have to sit in line at stations while attendants mosey
> around
> > > serving one car at a time. You spend ten minutes sitting at a pump
when
> > in
> > > 48 states you need spend only four.
> >
> > Again - if this is happening to you, then you need to find a new gas
> > station. The stations I use usually have the pump nozzle in hand by the
> > time I can pop the filler lid.
>
> Here's the scenario: With self serve I can pump and be gone in four
minutes.
> With Oregon pump laws, I have to sit until the attendant can come over to
> serve me. Of course, I can hurry them along if I look like I'm going to
> pump it myself--maybe that's the secret to getting faster service :)
>
The scenario as it happens to me repeated is: As I drive in, the attendant
is at the pump or on his way to it. I pop the filler lid from inside the
car, he puts the nozzle in. Since this is a pay-inside operation, I go in.
As soon as the tank is full, I pay the attendant and leave. There is no way
I could do it faster myself.
Another station nearby has four lanes, fast service and pay at the pump -
but takes longer because you often have to wait for the car ahead of you to
finish filling (and since it's cheap, all the big tanks fill up there).
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:2YSVa.125887$Io.10707544@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vifn0mi4g0re41@no-spam
>
> > "Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0307292343020.29777@no-spam
>
> > > Hardly. If you've been reading the discussions
> > > for the past several months (at least) you'd
> > > have noted that every argument used by the
> > > pro-ban side was pretty much shot down or
> > > reduced to the level of a petty concern.
> >
> > Actually it's the pro-self-serve arguments that have been either shot
down
> > or reduced to the level of a petty concern. There are no personal
> "rights"
> > or "freedoms" being lost.
>
> I'm not aware of this. AFAIK, and please enlighten me if I'm off base
here,
> the arguments for keeping the ban include inclement weather (like upstate
NY
> and MN and summertime AZ don't have harsh weather), spilled gas on clothes
> and car (vapor-lock nozzles and auto-shut-off address this), safety (I
know
> of no poorly-lit gas stations, plus people gas up in DC and Baltimore,
> cities with much higher crime rates), and the disabled (Oregon has no
> monopoly there, and they don't pay more for their gas because they can't
do
> it themselves). Oh yeah, and fire hazard (gas stations blow up only in
the
> movies or when fleeing felons crash into a gas station).
>
> Those are the only reasons against self-serve I know of. As you can see,
> they're all pretty flimsy and easily discredited. If there are others,
line
> 'em up.
It has already been done before and you have pretty much summed them all up.
Baxter is just playing his usual game of "Is Not". Don't be surprised if he
says he won't give you any more evidence because you've been mean to him.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:2YSVa.125887$Io.10707544@no-spam
>
> Oh yeah, and fire hazard (gas stations blow up only in the
> movies
You're wrong. But that's not necessarily the basis of the law.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0308010123220.13214@no-spam
>
> William Hunt wrote:
>
>
> > Perhaps you overlook one crucial point: though you may
> > have thoroughly convinced yourself, regardless of whatever
> > political calculus you use to acheive that end, you have
> > still failed to successfully present any persuasive argument.
>
>
> Then apparently you've not been following this
> issue the past few months. It's been dealt with
> by me, Dave Thomspon and a few others. All
> pro-ban reasons were whittled down to the flimsy
> "it's a tradition", and "but it will never get
> repealed". That's so lame it can't get any
> lower.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > As for my comment about those 48 states (and of
> > > course I never said that they "can't be wrong"),
>
>
> > no, you offered "48 states" as support for your
> > claim that the Rational Basis argument is groundless.
> > Thus we assume 48 other states must be right,
> > therefore, they can't be wrong. That seems a
> > fair interpretation of your statements. You continue
> > on this very same path to convince yourself:
>
>
> No, it's that the 48 states where self serve goes
> on like a routine chore like people cutting
> their own grass or making a pot of coffee serve
> as an actual real life demonstration of why
> the best argument against it (safety) is fatally
> weak. Everyone else is saying "Hey, look at us"
> while we're treated like babies.
>
>
> [snip]
>
> > PS: Do you really consider 'vacuuming the pool' a
> > routine activity for most Oregonians?
>
>
> Well, how 'bout vacuuming a carpet, making
> a pot of coffee, or watering the lawn.
>
Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses, dispensing your own
medications, serving your own food, etc.
"Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vikv118mg9kpbb@no-spam
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0308010123220.13214@no-spam
> >
> > William Hunt wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Perhaps you overlook one crucial point: though you may
> > > have thoroughly convinced yourself, regardless of whatever
> > > political calculus you use to acheive that end, you have
> > > still failed to successfully present any persuasive argument.
> >
> >
> > Then apparently you've not been following this
> > issue the past few months. It's been dealt with
> > by me, Dave Thomspon and a few others. All
> > pro-ban reasons were whittled down to the flimsy
> > "it's a tradition", and "but it will never get
> > repealed". That's so lame it can't get any
> > lower.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > As for my comment about those 48 states (and of
> > > > course I never said that they "can't be wrong"),
> >
> >
> > > no, you offered "48 states" as support for your
> > > claim that the Rational Basis argument is groundless.
> > > Thus we assume 48 other states must be right,
> > > therefore, they can't be wrong. That seems a
> > > fair interpretation of your statements. You continue
> > > on this very same path to convince yourself:
> >
> >
> > No, it's that the 48 states where self serve goes
> > on like a routine chore like people cutting
> > their own grass or making a pot of coffee serve
> > as an actual real life demonstration of why
> > the best argument against it (safety) is fatally
> > weak. Everyone else is saying "Hey, look at us"
> > while we're treated like babies.
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > PS: Do you really consider 'vacuuming the pool' a
> > > routine activity for most Oregonians?
> >
> >
> > Well, how 'bout vacuuming a carpet, making
> > a pot of coffee, or watering the lawn.
> >
> Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses, dispensing your own
> medications, serving your own food, etc.
All requiring quite a bit more skill than pumping gas.
Boy, are you stupid.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
news:vil928sie903c7@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> > >
> > Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses, dispensing your
own
> > medications, serving your own food, etc.
>
> All requiring quite a bit more skill than pumping gas.
Skill has nothing to do with it.
>
> Boy, are you stupid.
>
It's your argument that's stupid. And you know it. We're still not talking
about Civil Rights - we talking about a commercial activity. You might as
well be demanding to go to MacDonald's and being allowed to cook your own
hamburger.
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:QLzWa.128739$Io.10912112@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vileo1gpgh2nd1@no-spam
> > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vil928sie903c7@no-spam
> > >
> > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses, dispensing
your
> > own
> > > > medications, serving your own food, etc.
> > >
> > > All requiring quite a bit more skill than pumping gas.
> >
> > Skill has nothing to do with it.
> > >
> > > Boy, are you stupid.
> > >
> > It's your argument that's stupid. And you know it. We're still not
> talking
> > about Civil Rights - we talking about a commercial activity. You might
as
> > well be demanding to go to MacDonald's and being allowed to cook your
own
> > hamburger.
>
> Are you high, Bax? Do you think that the gas pump attendants go to school
> for 2-4 years to learn how to pump gas?
Baxter is logic-challenged and doesn't like people who went to skool.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:QLzWa.128739$Io.10912112@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vileo1gpgh2nd1@no-spam
> > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:vil928sie903c7@no-spam
> > >
> > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses, dispensing
your
> > own
> > > > medications, serving your own food, etc.
> > >
> > > All requiring quite a bit more skill than pumping gas.
> >
> > Skill has nothing to do with it.
> > >
> > > Boy, are you stupid.
> > >
> > It's your argument that's stupid. And you know it. We're still not
> talking
> > about Civil Rights - we talking about a commercial activity. You might
as
> > well be demanding to go to MacDonald's and being allowed to cook your
own
> > hamburger.
>
> Are you high, Bax? Do you think that the gas pump attendants go to school
> for 2-4 years to learn how to pump gas?
>
What? You think it takes four years of schooling to learn to cook a
hamburger? What are you smoking?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:kFQWa.129567$Io.10998348@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vils7ckmvb981b@no-spam
> > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:QLzWa.128739$Io.10912112@no-spam
> > >
> > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > news:vileo1gpgh2nd1@no-spam
> > > > "Dave Thompson" <dav13795@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > > news:vil928sie903c7@no-spam
> > > > >
> > > > > "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Or filling your own teeth, making your own eyeglasses,
dispensing
> > your
> > > > own
> > > > > > medications, serving your own food, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > All requiring quite a bit more skill than pumping gas.
> > > >
> > > > Skill has nothing to do with it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Boy, are you stupid.
> > > > >
> > > > It's your argument that's stupid. And you know it. We're still not
> > > talking
> > > > about Civil Rights - we talking about a commercial activity. You
might
> > as
> > > > well be demanding to go to MacDonald's and being allowed to cook
your
> > own
> > > > hamburger.
> > >
> > > Are you high, Bax? Do you think that the gas pump attendants go to
> school
> > > for 2-4 years to learn how to pump gas?
> > >
> > What? You think it takes four years of schooling to learn to cook a
> > hamburger? What are you smoking?
>
> Exactly--so why compare fast workers and pump attendants with opticians,
> dentists and farmers as if the level of training and skill were
> interchangeable?
>
That's not the issue that I was referring to, now was it? You really don't
actually understand the concepts of "civil rights" and "commercial
regulation", do you? Just because some commerical establishments have
allowed self-serve, does not turn self-serve into a Right. And the fact
that we allow some establishments to operate some functions as self-serve
does not mean we cannot prohibit others from operating as self-serve.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
news:xIVWa.129884$Io.11021918@no-spam
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.spamguard@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:vio7ppo49oq80e@no-spam
>
> > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:ucUWa.129811$Io.11017162@no-spam
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't need state permission to refill my coffee cup,
> >
> > Depends on the store, doesn't it? You don't have some sort of "right"
in
> > regards to refilling your coffee cup self-serve.
>
> This is true. It depends on that particular store's policy. But there is
> no law banning it outright.
>
> > The State does, however, have the right to tell the store owner how to
> deal
> > with the public. In Oregon, the state has decided that gas stations
will
> > not allow the customer to fill their own autos.
>
> Correct--it's a statewide policy, so even stations that would like to
offer
> self serve don't have the option. See the difference?
>
I'm sure ALL of the stations would like to go self-serve. That move would,
however, require a vote of the people. Go right ahead and get up an
initiative to put it to a vote.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bob Tiernan" <zulu.pacifier.com@no-spam> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53MAILDIR.0308051934520.4141@no-spam
>
> Da Parrot-chick wrote:
>
> > You got me there, man. I have no idea of what civil rights is.
> > What's this commercial regulation thingy? Never heard of that
> > either.
>
> Actually, Parrot, one of the fiorgotten civil righst is
> the right to earn an honest living. We have lots of
> under-employment, to name one thing, because of the
> government's addiction to regulating commerce far beyond
> what the Framers had in mind and because there's power
> in regulating for the sake of regulating.
>
>
> > I don't need state permission to refill my coffee cup,
> > and I won't be cited for picking up a take and bake pizza.
>
>
> The latter is okay but the former you can't do if the owner
> of the place doesn't want you to. The government might
> even trunp the owner and pass a law saying you can't even
> if the owner doesn't mind. Fortunately we don't have a
> one-size-fits-all law regarding this for it would be
> ignored in many places in the country. I recall our
> stop in Kimball, South Dakota in '76 when we went into a
> main street cafe (the only place in town) and as we ate
> our breakfasts all of the ranchers came in one by one
> and went behind the counter to fill their own coffee
> cups. These sorts of people don't give a rat's
> ass what people like Baxter or Shatzer think about it.
> Never will, either.
>
What you're really talking about, Bob T, is not paying people a decent wage.